Ignatius derived Pilate from Simon Magus and connected him with Jesus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Ignatius derived Pilate from Simon Magus and connected him with Jesus

Post by MrMacSon »

Giuseppe wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:29 am All the experts on Samaritanism agree that the Samaritan Impostor was considered the Messiah Son of Joseph by his followers. Since Simon Magus wanted the reconstruction of the temple on the mount Gerizim, then Simon Magus was probably in line with the Samaritan Impostor, if not even the same person.

Giuseppe wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:29 am Ellegard has already mentioned Ignatius as the first Christian who introduced Pilate. I am corroborating his argument by adding that Ignatius derived from the Samaritan Simon Magus the name of the Roman governor who crucified the Messiah Son of Joseph and connected Pilate with his Jesus.
  • What if the Epistles attributed to Ignatius are late? Say 180-200 AD/CE ??
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Ignatius derived Pilate from Simon Magus and connected him with Jesus

Post by MrMacSon »

Giuseppe wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:00 am
  • Simon Magus: I, or my mentor who now lives in me, appeared as "Jesus" in Judea under Pilate.
  • Where does 'Simon Magus' give this account ?
  • What is the source of this idea ?
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Ignatius derived Pilate from Simon Magus and connected him with Jesus

Post by Giuseppe »

MrMacSon wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:31 am
  • What if the Epistles attributed to Ignatius are late? Say 180-200 AD/CE ??
My argument fails.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Ignatius derived Pilate from Simon Magus and connected him with Jesus

Post by Giuseppe »

MrMacSon wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:33 am
Giuseppe wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:00 am
  • Simon Magus: I, or my mentor who now lives in me, appeared as "Jesus" in Judea under Pilate.
  • Where does 'Simon Magus' give this account ?
  • What is the source of this idea ?
Against Heresies (Book I, Chapter 23) of Irenaeus.
Irenaeus assumes that Simon Magus said that he was appeared under Pilate etc.
User avatar
GakuseiDon
Posts: 2295
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:10 pm

Re: Ignatius derived Pilate from Simon Magus and connected him with Jesus

Post by GakuseiDon »

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 1, Chapter 23:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... book1.html
---
1. Simon the Samaritan was that magician of whom Luke, the disciple and follower of the apostles, says, "But there was a certain man, Simon by name, who beforetime used magical arts in that city, and led astray the people of Samaria, declaring that he himself was some great one, to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This is the power of God, which is called great. And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had driven them mad by his sorceries." This Simon, then-who feigned faith, supposing that the apostles themselves performed their cures by the art of magic, and not by the power of God; and with respect to their filling with the Holy Ghost, through the imposition of hands, those that believed in God through Him who was preached by them, namely, Christ Jesus-suspecting that even this was done through a kind of greater knowledge of magic, and offering money to the apostles, thought he, too, might receive this power of bestowing the Holy Spirit on whomsoever he would,-was addressed in these words by Peter: "Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God can be purchased with money: thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter, for thy heart is not fight in the sight of God; for I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity." He, then, not putting faith in God a whit the more, set himself eagerly to contend against the apostles, in order that he himself might seem to be a wonderful being, and applied himself with still greater zeal to the study of the whole magic art, that he might the better bewilder and overpower multitudes of men. Such was his procedure in the reign of Claudius Caesar, by whom also he is said to have been honoured with a statue, on account of his magical power. This man, then, was glorified by many as if he were a god; and he taught that it was himself who appeared among the Jews as the Son, but descended in Samaria as the Father while he came to other nations in the character of the Holy Spirit. He represented himself, in a word, as being the loftiest of all powers, that is, the Being who is the Father over all, and he allowed himself to be called by whatsoever title men were pleased to address him.

2. Now this Simon of Samaria, from whom all sorts of heresies derive their origin, formed his sect out of the following materials:-Having redeemed from slavery at Tyre, a city of Phoenicia, a certain woman named Helena, he was in the habit of carrying her about with him, declaring that this woman was the first conception of his mind, the mother of all, by whom, in the beginning, he conceived in his mind [the thought] of forming angels and archangels. For this Ennoea leaping forth from him, and comprehending the will of her father, descended to the lower regions [of space], and generated angels and powers, by whom also he declared this word was formed. But after she had produced them, she was detained by them through motives of jealousy, because they were unwilling to be looked upon as the progeny of any other being. As to himself, they had no knowledge of him whatever; but his Ennoea was detained by those powers and angels who had been produced by her. She suffered all kinds of contumely from them, so that she could not return upwards to her father, but was even shut up in a human body, and for ages passed in succession from one female body to another, as from vessel to vessel. She was, for example, in that Helen on whose account the Trojan war was undertaken; for whose sake also Stesichorus was struck blind, because he had cursed her in his verses, but afterwards, repenting and writing what are called palinodes, in which he sang her praise, he was restored to sight. Thus she, passing from body to body, and suffering insults in every one of them, at last became a common prostitute; and she it was that was meant by the lost sheep.

3. For this purpose, then, he had come that he might win her first, and free her from slavery, while he conferred salvation upon men, by making himself known to them. For since the angels ruled the world ill because each one of them coveted the principal power for himself, he had come to amend matters, and had descended, transfigured and assimilated to powers and principalities and angels, so that he might appear among men to be a man, while yet he was not a man; and that thus he was thought to have suffered in Judaea, when he had not suffered. Moreover, the prophets uttered their predictions under the inspiration of those angels who formed the world; for which reason those who place their trust in him and Helena no longer regarded them, but, as being free, live as they please; for men are saved through his grace, and not on account of their own righteous actions. For such deeds are not righteous in the nature of things, but by mere accident, just as those angels who made the world, have thought fit to constitute them, seeking, by means of such precepts, to bring men into bondage. On this account, he pledged himself that the world should be dissolved, and that those who are his should be freed from the rule of them who made the world.

4. Thus, then, the mystic priests belonging to this sect both lead profligate lives and practise magical arts, each one to the extent of his ability. They use exorcisms and incantations. Love-potions, too, and charms, as well as those beings who are called "Paredri" (familiars) and "Oniropompi" (dream-senders), and whatever other curious arts can be had recourse to, are eagerly pressed into their service. They also have an image of Simon fashioned after the likeness of Jupiter, and another of Helena in the shape of Minerva; and these they worship. In fine, they have a name derived from Simon, the author of these most impious doctrines, being called Simonians; and from them "knowledge, falsely so called," received its beginning, as one may learn even from their own assertions.

5. The successor of this man was Menander, also a Samaritan by birth, and he, too, was a perfect adept in the practice of magic. He affirms that the primary Power continues unknown to all, but that he himself is the person who has been sent forth from the presence of the invisible beings as a saviour, for the deliverance of men. The world was made by angels, whom, like Simon, he maintains to have been produced by Ennoea. He gives, too, as he affirms, by means of that magic which he teaches, knowledge to this effect, that one may overcome those very angels that made the world; for his disciples obtain the resurrection by being baptized into him, and can die no more, but remain in the possession of immortal youth.
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Ignatius derived Pilate from Simon Magus and connected him with Jesus

Post by MrMacSon »

Giuseppe wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:50 am Against Heresies (Book I, Chapter 23) of Irenaeus.
Irenaeus assumes that Simon Magus said that he was appeared under Pilate etc.
That chapter doesn't mention Pilate

It opens with a passage that also appears in Acts then says:


This Simon, then, feigned faith, supposing that the apostles themselves performed their cures by the art of magic, and not by the power of God


Ireaneus says Simon


set himself eagerly to contend against the apostles, in order that he himself might seem to be a wonderful being, and applied himself with still greater zeal to the study of the whole magic art, that he might the better bewilder and overpower multitudes of men


And refers to


... his procedure in the reign of Claudius Cæsar, by whom also he is said to have been honoured with a statue, on account of his magical power


Claudius ruled AD/CE 41 to 54, after Pilate finished being governor/procurator/prefect



It goes on


This man, then, was glorified by many as if he were a god; and he taught that it was himself who appeared among the Jews as the Son, but descended in Samaria as the Father while he came to other nations in the character of the Holy Spirit. He represented himself, in a word, as being the loftiest of all powers, that is, the Being who is the Father over all, and he allowed himself to be called by whatsoever title men were pleased to address him.

2. Now this Simon of Samaria, from whom all sorts of heresies derive their origin, formed his sect out of the following materials: Having redeemed from slavery at Tyre, a city of Phœnicia, a certain woman named Helena, he was in the habit of carrying her about with him, declaring that this woman was the first conception of his mind, the mother of all, by whom, in the beginning, he conceived in his mind [the Thought] of forming angels and archangels. For this Ennœa, leaping forth from him, and comprehending the will of her father, descended to the lower regions [of space], and generated angels and powers, by whom also he declared this world was formed. But after she had produced them, she was detained by them through motives of jealousy, because they were unwilling to be looked upon as the progeny of any other being. As to himself, they had no knowledge of him whatever; but his Ennœa was detained by those powers and angels who had been produced by her ...

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103123.htm


( It's interesting Irenaeus calls Helena an "Ennoea leaping from [Simon]' ... [who/which] generated angels and powers by whom he declared this world was formed [yet] they had no knowledge of him". They sound like 'gnostic' powers, not people : note the comment that Simon "might seem to be a wonderful being" above )
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Ignatius derived Pilate from Simon Magus and connected him with Jesus

Post by Giuseppe »

MrMacSon wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:20 am
Giuseppe wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:50 am Against Heresies (Book I, Chapter 23) of Irenaeus.
Irenaeus assumes that Simon Magus said that he was appeared under Pilate etc.
That chapter doesn't mention Pilate
yes but obviously Pilate is assumed in the background by Irenaeus and, by extension, by his rival Simonians from which he derived the presumed claim of Simon.

So Pilate was part and parcel of something that was advanced first by Simon. Pilate was EXCLUSIVE part and parcel of a Samaritan source.

If Ignatius insisted on Pilate and only on Pilate as dating of the crucifixion of Jesus, then the reason is that Ignatius, while he insisted that Jesus really suffered, was modifying partially the original claim of the Samaritan Simon: Jesus only appeared to suffer under Pilate.

The changement regarded the entity of the suffering: it was real for Ignatius, merely apparent for Simon.
The changement of the original Simonian claim by Ignatius didn't regard the name of the Roman governor mentioned in the Samaritan source: Pilate.
schillingklaus
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:17 pm

Re: Ignatius derived Pilate from Simon Magus and connected him with Jesus

Post by schillingklaus »

Of course the epistles are excessively late, especially in the longer recension. There is no connection whatsoever to any events in the early first century.

That statue, rediscovered a few centuries ago, is even more hilarious as it is dedicated to Semo Sancus, which has nothing to do with Simon the Mage.

The story of Simon and Helena is to be understood allegorically, not historically as naive scholars do.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Ignatius derived Pilate from Simon Magus and connected him with Jesus

Post by Giuseppe »

So the miracle happened that, only in virtue of Pilate being mentioned by rival Simonians as the name of the Roman governor who had apparently put to death the Samaritan Christ (= Simon Magus, or Dositheus, or anyone else was the historical Samaritan Impostor crucified by Pilate and described by Josephus), only in virtue of that occurrence of the name 'Pilate' in a rival Samaritan source, Ignatius connected Pilate with his Jesus Christ in what had to be the 'correct' version of the story to sell to the Docetists and/or Samaritans in order to win them definitely.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Ignatius derived Pilate from Simon Magus and connected him with Jesus

Post by Giuseppe »

Naturally my case is stronger if (a great: if) the Samaritan Impostor was just Simon Magus. Or if (a further great: if) the Samaritan Impostor was just Dositheus. Or if (a further great: if) the Samaritan Impostor was the original John the Baptist.

But even if we place ourselves in the scenario less supportive of my view, that the Samaritan Impostor was not Simon Magus, not Dositheus and not John the Baptist, then, even so, the fact that Simon Magus was Samaritan, the fact that he was a Samaritan presumed 'Christian', in addition to independent evidence of the existence of a Samaritan cult of Jesus as Messiah Son of Joseph (a cult of which the strongest trace is the name of the humanized father of Jesus in the fictional Gospels: Joseph), does connect virtually him SOMEWAY with the best candidate for the role of the Samaritan Taheb adored by 'Christians' of Samaria: the Samaritan Impostor crucified by Pilate.

The way by which this connection happened, if Simon Magus was not the same Samaritan Impostor crucified by Pilate, could be in the form of a Samaritan figure who claimed to be the Risen Samaritan Impostor.
Post Reply