Samuel Krauss: the Samaritan false prophet slain by Pilate was called Dositheus

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Giuseppe
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Re: Samuel Krauss: the Samaritan false prophet slain by Pilate was called Dositheus

Post by Giuseppe »

MrMacSon wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:07 pm 1. Where does Origen compare the appearance of Dositheus with that of Judah the Galilean? In what context ?
I have quoted what matters from Origen here.
MrMacSon wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:07 pm 2. Why did you start a new thread to make the post quoted here^ when it's a follow-on from this already existing thread ?
It helps to divide in logical steps my thinking.
MrMacSon wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:07 pm 3. As far as I'm concerned, it remains debatable whether Judas the Galilean, Theudas, the "Egyptian", etc, were 'messiah-claimants' themselves or whether 'messiah-claimant' has become a trope for them ...
Even in the latter case, what matters is how the author of the Oldest Gospel saw/perceived them, not the historical reality.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Samuel Krauss: the Samaritan false prophet slain by Pilate was called Dositheus

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Giuseppe wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:39 pm
MrMacSon wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:07 pm 1. Where does Origen compare the appearance of Dositheus with that of Judah the Galilean? In what context ?
I have quoted what matters from Origen here
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:50 am

For this reason, they loved [John the Baptist] quite justly, but they did not keep their love within bounds; for they kept wondering ''whether perhaps he was the Christ''. ... [Paul] wanted no one to think more of him than he saw or, going beyond the limits of honor, to say what had been said about John, that ''he was the Christ''. Some people said this even about Dositheus, the heresiarch of the Samaritans; others said it also about Judas the Galilean. Finally, some people burst forth into such great audacity of love that they invented new and unheard of exaggerations about Paul. For, some say this, that the passage in Scripture that speaks of ''sitting at the Savior's right and left'' applies to Paul and Marcion: Paul sits at his right hand and Marcion at his left.


(Origen, Hom. in Luc., 25)

Not sure Origen is comparing Dositheus with Judah the Galilean as much as making observations, and, frankly, he's making those observations about entities being called or said to be "the Christ" in reference to Paul supposedly saying that John had been considered to be "the Christ" which, frankly, is nonsense ie. Paul never made reference to John being said to be "the Christ."

Giuseppe wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:39 pm
MrMacSon wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:07 pm 3. As far as I'm concerned, it remains debatable whether Judas the Galilean, Theudas, the "Egyptian", etc, were 'messiah-claimants' themselves or whether 'messiah-claimant' has become a trope for them ...
Even in the latter case, what matters is how the author of the Oldest Gospel saw/perceived them, not the historical reality.
How on earth do we know how the author of the Oldest Gospel saw/perceived Judas the Galilean, Theudas, the "Egyptian", etc., ????
Giuseppe
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Re: Samuel Krauss: the Samaritan false prophet slain by Pilate was called Dositheus

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MrMacSon wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:57 pm Not sure Origen is comparing Dositheus with Judah the Galilean as much as making observations
in Contra Celsum 1:57 he does newly the comparison, even arriving to bypass the direct comparison with Jesus, so much he is disturbed by a such comparison.
MrMacSon wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:57 pm How on earth do we know how the author of the Oldest Gospel saw/perceived Judas the Galilean, Theudas, the "Egyptian", etc., ????
in Mark 13 there are warnings against false Messiahs, which fits the Origen's warnings against the false Messiahs Dositheus, Judas the Galilean, Simon Magus, John the Baptist, even Paul.

Accordingly, what is important is what the Oldest Gospel perceived as messianists, even beyond if the historical Judas the Galilean did messianic claims or less, in the real History.

At any case, Josephus gives good evidence that the Samaritan false prophet slain by Pilate (the person I identify with Dositheus) wanted to pose as the "second Moses", i.e. the Samaritan Messiah.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Samuel Krauss: the Samaritan false prophet slain by Pilate was called Dositheus

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Giuseppe wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:10 pm
MrMacSon wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:57 pm Not sure Origen is comparing Dositheus with Judah the Galilean as much as making observations
in Contra Celsum 1:57 he does newly the comparison, even arriving to bypass the direct comparison with Jesus, so much he is disturbed by a such comparison

Contra Celsum 1:57:


... we shall mention that there was a certain Theudas among the Jews before the birth of Christ, who gave himself out as some great one, after whose death his deluded followers were completely dispersed. And after him, in the days of the census, when Jesus appears to have been born, one Judas, a Galilean, gathered around him many of the Jewish people, saying he was a wise man, and a teacher of certain new doctrines. And when he also had paid the penalty of his rebellion, his doctrine was overturned, having taken hold of very few persons indeed, and these of the very humblest condition.


Origen must have got that information from Josephus.



And after the times of Jesus, Dositheus the Samaritan also wished to persuade the Samaritans that he was the Christ predicted by Moses; and he appears to have gained over some to his views. But it is not absurd, in quoting the extremely wise observation of that Gamaliel named in the book of Acts, to show how those persons above mentioned were strangers to the promise, being neither sons of God nor powers of God, whereas Christ Jesus was truly the Son of God.

Now Gamaliel, in the passage referred to, said: "If this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought" (as also did the designs of those men already mentioned after their death); "but if it be of God, you cannot overthrow this doctrine, lest haply you be found even to fight against God."

There was also Simon the Samaritan magician, who wished to draw away certain by his magical arts. And on that occasion he was successful; but now-a-days it is impossible to find, I suppose, thirty of his followers in the entire world, and probably I have even overstated the number. There are exceedingly few in Palestine. While, in the rest of the world, through which he desired to spread the glory of his name, you find it nowhere mentioned. And where it is found, it is found quoted from the Acts of the Apostles; so that it is to Christians that he owes this mention of himself, the unmistakeable result having proved that Simon was in no respect divine.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04161.htm


That last bit about Simon is not true. Simonianism persisted and had its own document, the Great Declaration, preserved in Refutation of All Heresies 6
Giuseppe
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Re: Samuel Krauss: the Samaritan false prophet slain by Pilate was called Dositheus

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Origen didn't know Josephus but Hegesippis. This is particularly true about the source of his mention of the Baptist.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Samuel Krauss: the Samaritan false prophet slain by Pilate was called Dositheus

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Giuseppe wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:00 am Origen didn't know Josephus but Hegesippis
Here (ie. in Contra Celsus 1:57) or in general?
(elsewhere (in Contra Celsus or Commentary on Matthew or both) Origen says he knows Josephus wrt his discussions about James)

eta: and we only know Hegesippis through Eusebius: he could be a sock-puppet)
schillingklaus
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Re: Samuel Krauss: the Samaritan false prophet slain by Pilate was called Dositheus

Post by schillingklaus »

Mk13 is excessively late, so there is no reason to assume any relevance of JtG or whatever early-first-century figure.
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