Dura Europos

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Ken Olson
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Re: Dura Europos

Post by Ken Olson »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 5:37 am
neilgodfrey wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:59 pm I wish I could find again the article that described that scene as a rescue from a shipwreck scene.
Ken Olson wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 4:42 am
Leucius Charinus wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:03 pm For example Clark Hopkins, who discovered the "house church" described the "Healing of the Paralytic" as "a god on a cloud". He also described "Peter and Christ walking on water" as a "Shipwreck scene".
Could you give a citation for where Clark Hopkins described 'Peter and Christ walking on water' as a 'Shipwreck scene''?

Final Report. p.228

Jan 22, 1932: Letter to M.I.R. from Clark Hopkins

Suddenly ,... "there was the boat scene, several people holding up their arms, the upper part of a man below. I took away the dirt to the left and saw a man on a bed, another carrying a bed and the god on the cloud above. Of course the Bible story of the sick man picking up his bed and walking occurred to me, but I thought it was more likely someone who had been saved from shipwreck and had erected the chapel displaying the escape and his cure by the god."

Thank you.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Dura Europos

Post by StephenGoranson »

So, Hopkins' first view (later changed?) plus Pete's proposed deflection to David
equals

David's shipwreck!??????

(ps nevermind Peter--or Paul)
andrewcriddle
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Re: Dura Europos

Post by andrewcriddle »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:17 pm Attention Stephen Goranson

I asked you earlier -- and I now repeat my request -- whether you are able to find a copy of an article you yourself cited on your published article:

"7 vs. 8: The Battle Over the Holy Day at Dura-Europos"
https://people.duke.edu/~goranson/Dura-Europos.pdf

Here are the details once again:
StephenGoranson wrote:
an article of 1963 by R. de Buisson - "L'inscriptions de la niche centrale de la synagogue de Doura-Europos" (Syria 40) which argues that one artist worked at both the church house and the synagogue. The footnote says: "He claims that two inscriptions in the two buildings refer to the same man (supposedly named Sisa or Siseos)"
Or can anyone else locate this article? Thanks
https://www.persee.fr/doc/syria_0039-79 ... _40_3_8469

Andrew Criddle
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Dura Europos

Post by neilgodfrey »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 5:37 am
neilgodfrey wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:59 pm I wish I could find again the article that described that scene as a rescue from a shipwreck scene.
Ken Olson wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 4:42 am
Leucius Charinus wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:03 pm For example Clark Hopkins, who discovered the "house church" described the "Healing of the Paralytic" as "a god on a cloud". He also described "Peter and Christ walking on water" as a "Shipwreck scene".
Could you give a citation for where Clark Hopkins described 'Peter and Christ walking on water' as a 'Shipwreck scene''?

Final Report. p.228

Jan 22, 1932: Letter to M.I.R. from Clark Hopkins

Suddenly ,... "there was the boat scene, several people holding up their arms, the upper part of a man below. I took away the dirt to the left and saw a man on a bed, another carrying a bed and the god on the cloud above. Of course the Bible story of the sick man picking up his bed and walking occurred to me, but I thought it was more likely someone who had been saved from shipwreck and had erected the chapel displaying the escape and his cure by the god."

Ιs this the source?

https://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/w ... a001241935

It tells me only US folk can access it.
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Ken Olson
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Re: Dura Europos

Post by Ken Olson »

neilgodfrey wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 1:24 pm
Leucius Charinus wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 5:37 am


Final Report. p.228

Jan 22, 1932: Letter to M.I.R. from Clark Hopkins

Suddenly ,... "there was the boat scene, several people holding up their arms, the upper part of a man below. I took away the dirt to the left and saw a man on a bed, another carrying a bed and the god on the cloud above. Of course the Bible story of the sick man picking up his bed and walking occurred to me, but I thought it was more likely someone who had been saved from shipwreck and had erected the chapel displaying the escape and his cure by the god."

Ιs this the source?

https://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/w ... a001241935

It tells me only US folk can access it.
Try this:

https://dokumen.tips/download/link/the- ... h-kraeling

Best,

Ken
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Dura Europos

Post by Leucius Charinus »

andrewcriddle wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:28 am
Leucius Charinus wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:17 pm
StephenGoranson wrote:
an article of 1963 by R. de Buisson - "L'inscriptions de la niche centrale de la synagogue de Doura-Europos" (Syria 40) which argues that one artist worked at both the church house and the synagogue. The footnote says: "He claims that two inscriptions in the two buildings refer to the same man (supposedly named Sisa or Siseos)"
Or can anyone else locate this article? Thanks
https://www.persee.fr/doc/syria_0039-79 ... _40_3_8469

Thanks Andrew. and others,
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Dura Europos

Post by neilgodfrey »

Ken Olson wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 1:29 pm
Try this:

https://dokumen.tips/download/link/the- ... h-kraeling

Best,

Ken
Τhanks.

The quotation does not match my memory of what I thought I read. Is it possible a memory could ever be mistaken?
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Ken Olson
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Re: Dura Europos

Post by Ken Olson »

neilgodfrey wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 2:06 pm
Ken Olson wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 1:29 pm
Try this:

https://dokumen.tips/download/link/the- ... h-kraeling

Best,

Ken
Τhanks.

The quotation does not match my memory of what I thought I read. Is it possible a memory could ever be mistaken?
:lol:

But seriously, I've seen paraphrases of what Clark Hopkins wrote on the murals show up in the literature on the site, including his own book, The Discovery of Dura Europos, from 1979. I wanted to see the original (or at least earliest attested version).

Best,

Ken
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Dura Europos

Post by Leucius Charinus »

StephenGoranson wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:31 am So, Hopkins' first view (later changed?) plus Pete's proposed deflection to David
equals

David's shipwreck!????
The proposition is that the interpretation of the artistic themes, motifs and subject matter of the murals in the "Religious Room" of this house - each considered in isolation - is a notoriously subjective exercise.

This subjectivity is mitigated by two rather more "objective "evidence" / claims":

1) The MINOR objective claim: The demonstrable claim that the mural of David and Goliath contains Greek captions explicitly naming both David and Goliath, and that at least we know we are looking at David and Goliath. David is holding a sword and not Peter.

2) The MAJOR objective claim: Hopkin's (I argue doubtful) claim that the sacred abbreviated Christian Trade Mark name (i.e. "nomina sacra") of Christ is twice present on inscriptions "in the room", A claim that many of the prominent "Biblical Historians and Scholars" of the 1930's flocked around in order to convince themselves that Hopkins had indeed discovered the earliest known Christian "baptistry". And that a Christian art appreciation of the murals could be justified.

Preliminary Report

p.250

Fourteen baptistries discovered in Northern Syria and only half dated. Only two are dated earlier than the 6th century, to the first half of the 5th.


p.251


To judge from the literary evidence, a baptistry would be one of
the first architectural features erected in a meeting place for Christians,
and its establishment in a private house would cause no surprise. We
have already noticed that Peter at Antioch baptized more than ten
thousand in seven days yet used a private residence for his teachings.

Secret Alias
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Re: Dura Europos

Post by Secret Alias »

It's a fucking church with pictures from the gospel. Not complicated.
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