Relationship of gLuke, gMarcion and Acts

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
gmx
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Re: Relationship of gLuke, gMarcion and Acts

Post by gmx »

Ken Olson wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:11 am The Journal of Greco-Roman Judaism and Christianity has started posting downloadable articles for it's 2022 volume. This paper may be of interest:

Michael Kok - Justin Martyr and the Authorship of Luke's Gospel - JGRChJ 18 2022

http://www.jgrchj.net/volume18/?page=volume18

Just found it this morning, so I haven't read it yet, but it does discuss Marcion (52 mentions).

Best,

Ken
Thanks Ken. I have found a couple of articles that would probably be instructive with respect to my question, but which I do not have access to, so am very appreciative of the link.
gmx
Posts: 317
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Re: Relationship of gLuke, gMarcion and Acts

Post by gmx »

First candidate: ὑποστρέφω
https://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_5290.htm

The above site lists 35 NT occurrences of this word:
  • Luke (21 occurrences across chapters 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 17, 19, 23, 24)
  • Acts (11 occurrences across chapters 1, 8, 12, 13, 14, 20, 21, 22, 23)
  • Galatians (1 occurrence)
  • Hebrews (1 occurrence)
  • 2 Peter (1 occurrence)
Assuming the data on the linked page is accurate, with 32 of the 35 NT usages present in Luke-Acts (and reasonably distributed between the two works), this appears to meet the definition of a characteristic Lukan word.

As far as I can tell, the use of this word by Marcion is confirmed in the reconstruction of his gospel by explicit quotation by one or both of Tertullian and Epiphanius, via the gMarcion equivalents of Luke 23:56 and Luke 24:9.

gMarcion is obviously lacking the Luke 1,2 & 4 occurrences. As far as I can determine, the other Lukan usages are either unattested in gMarcion or the wording has been assumed as a result of not being explicitly quoted by Tertullian et al.

On the surface, this seems to confirm the presence of an idiomatic Lukan word in a parallel passage of Marcion's gospel.
rgprice
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Re: Relationship of gLuke, gMarcion and Acts

Post by rgprice »

@gmx Very interesting indeed.

I haven't looked into all of the uses in Luke yet, but I looked at the ones in Luke 4, 7 and 8.

The usage in 4 is in content that is explicitly non-Marcionite (the temptation of Jesus). In 7 and 8 it is unattested, but not explicitly non-Marcionite.

Is it possible to consider all or most of the uses in Luke as part of distinct revisions by a separate writer than the writer of the other content?

Its definitely extremely interesting. I'll have to look into this further.
gmx
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Re: Relationship of gLuke, gMarcion and Acts

Post by gmx »

rgprice wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:43 am Is it possible to consider all or most of the uses in Luke as part of distinct revisions by a separate writer than the writer of the other content?
Apologies @rg but I don't understand this question.
gmx
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:35 am

Re: Relationship of gLuke, gMarcion and Acts

Post by gmx »

gmx wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:16 am Candidate #1: ὑποστρέφω
https://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_5290.htm

The above site lists 35 NT occurrences of this word:
  • Luke (21 occurrences across chapters 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 17, 19, 23, 24)
  • Acts (11 occurrences across chapters 1, 8, 12, 13, 14, 20, 21, 22, 23)
  • Galatians (1 occurrence)
  • Hebrews (1 occurrence)
  • 2 Peter (1 occurrence)
Idiomatic Lukan Vocabulary: 32 of the 35 NT usages present in Luke-Acts, reasonably distributed between the two volumes.

Word attested in Marcion: Yes (in gMarcion parallels to Luke 23:56 and Luke 24:9).
Candidate #2: εἴη
https://biblehub.com/greek/eie__1510.htm

The above site lists 12 NT occurrences of this word:
  • Luke (7 occurrences across chapters 1, 3, 8, 9, 15, 18, 22)
  • Acts (4 occurrences across chapters 8, 10, 20, 21)
  • John (1 occurrence)
Idiomatic Lukan Vocabulary: 11 of the 12 NT usages are present in Luke-Acts, reasonably distributed between the two volumes.

Word attested in Marcion: Yes (in gMarcion parallel to Luke 18:36)
gryan
Posts: 1120
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:11 am

Re: Relationship of gLuke, gMarcion and Acts

Post by gryan »

gmx wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:16 am First candidate: ὑποστρέφω
https://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_5290.htm

The above site lists 35 NT occurrences of this word:
  • Luke (21 occurrences across chapters 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 17, 19, 23, 24)
  • Acts (11 occurrences across chapters 1, 8, 12, 13, 14, 20, 21, 22, 23)
  • Galatians (1 occurrence)
  • Hebrews (1 occurrence)
  • 2 Peter (1 occurrence)
Assuming the data on the linked page is accurate, with 32 of the 35 NT usages present in Luke-Acts (and reasonably distributed between the two works), this appears to meet the definition of a characteristic Lukan word.

As far as I can tell, the use of this word by Marcion is confirmed in the reconstruction of his gospel by explicit quotation by one or both of Tertullian and Epiphanius, via the gMarcion equivalents of Luke 23:56 and Luke 24:9.

gMarcion is obviously lacking the Luke 1,2 & 4 occurrences. As far as I can determine, the other Lukan usages are either unattested in gMarcion or the wording has been assumed as a result of not being explicitly quoted by Tertullian et al.

On the surface, this seems to confirm the presence of an idiomatic Lukan word in a parallel passage of Marcion's gospel.
@gmx

What do you make of that usage in Galatians 1:17?

... and I returned back to Damascus.
...καὶ πάλιν ὑπέστρεψα εἰς Δαμασκόν.

Taken as a canonical literary unit, this is a key moment in Galatians (not attested to be in Marcion's Galatians). I think Galatians, this passage included, influenced the writer of Acts. I took a close look at that passage in this essay:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eHH ... sp=sharing

Note that in the above article, I quote Justin in support of my thesis that Damascus was a city in the region of Arabia. IMHO, I have detected the influence of the flesh phrases of Galatians on Justin too.

Have you thought about the possible influence of Galatians on Luke-Acts (and Hebrews and 2 Peter and Justin)?

Greg
Last edited by gryan on Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rgprice
Posts: 2091
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Re: Relationship of gLuke, gMarcion and Acts

Post by rgprice »

gryan wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:48 pm What do you make of that usage in Galatians 1:17?

... and I returned back to Damascus.
...καὶ πάλιν ὑπέστρεψα εἰς Δαμασκόν.

Taken as a canonical literary unit, this is a key moment in Galatians (not attested to be in Marcion's Galatians). I think Galatians, this passage included, influenced the writer of Acts. I took a close look at that passage in this essay:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eHH ... sp=sharing

Note that in the above article, I quote Justin in support of my thesis that Damascus was a city in the region of Arabia. IMHO, I have detected the influence of the flesh phrases of Galatians on Justin too.

Have you thought about the possible influence of Galatians on both Luke-Acts (and Hebrews and 2 Peter and Justin)?

Greg
Or it was added to Galatians by the writer of Luke-Acts.
gmx
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:35 am

Re: Relationship of gLuke, gMarcion and Acts

Post by gmx »

rgprice wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:25 pm
gryan wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:48 pm What do you make of that usage in Galatians 1:17?

... and I returned back to Damascus.
...καὶ πάλιν ὑπέστρεψα εἰς Δαμασκόν.

Taken as a canonical literary unit, this is a key moment in Galatians (not attested to be in Marcion's Galatians). I think Galatians, this passage included, influenced the writer of Acts. I took a close look at that passage in this essay:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eHH ... sp=sharing

Note that in the above article, I quote Justin in support of my thesis that Damascus was a city in the region of Arabia. IMHO, I have detected the influence of the flesh phrases of Galatians on Justin too.

Have you thought about the possible influence of Galatians on both Luke-Acts (and Hebrews and 2 Peter and Justin)?

Greg
Or it was added to Galatians by the writer of Luke-Acts.
Yes quite interesting.

The usage in 2 Peter seems different, so maybe it can be discounted. (Thoughts?)

Of course, Like has been suggested as author of Hebrews, so that potentially fits.

An interpolation at Galatians 1:17 ? I'll have to give that some thought.
gmx
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:35 am

Re: Relationship of gLuke, gMarcion and Acts

Post by gmx »

gmx wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:24 pm
gmx wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:16 am Candidate #1: ὑποστρέφω
https://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_5290.htm

The above site lists 35 NT occurrences of this word:
  • Luke (21 occurrences across chapters 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 17, 19, 23, 24)
  • Acts (11 occurrences across chapters 1, 8, 12, 13, 14, 20, 21, 22, 23)
  • Galatians (1 occurrence)
  • Hebrews (1 occurrence)
  • 2 Peter (1 occurrence)
Idiomatic Lukan Vocabulary: 32 of the 35 NT usages present in Luke-Acts, reasonably distributed between the two volumes.

Word attested in Marcion: Yes (in gMarcion parallels to Luke 23:56 and Luke 24:9).
Candidate #2: εἴη
https://biblehub.com/greek/eie__1510.htm

The above site lists 12 NT occurrences of this word:
  • Luke (7 occurrences across chapters 1, 3, 8, 9, 15, 18, 22)
  • Acts (4 occurrences across chapters 8, 10, 20, 21)
  • John (1 occurrence)
Idiomatic Lukan Vocabulary: 11 of the 12 NT usages are present in Luke-Acts, reasonably distributed between the two volumes.

Word attested in Marcion: Yes (in gMarcion parallel to Luke 18:36)
Candidate #3: odunaó
https://biblehub.com/greek/3600.htm

The above site lists 4 NT occurrences of this word:
  • Luke (3 occurrences across chapters 2, 16)
  • Acts (1 occurrence across chapters 20)
Idiomatic Lukan Vocabulary: 4 of the 4 NT usages are present in Luke-Acts, reasonably distributed between the two volumes.

Word attested in Marcion: Yes (in gMarcion parallel to Luke 16:24, 16:25)
rgprice
Posts: 2091
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Re: Relationship of gLuke, gMarcion and Acts

Post by rgprice »

Very interesting gmx. BTW, how are you going about identifying these words? Do they come from a known study? Are you identifying them yourself?
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