Relationship of gLuke, gMarcion and Acts

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
gryan
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Re: Relationship of gLuke, gMarcion and Acts

Post by gryan »

gmx wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:22 am
Candidate #3: odunaó
https://biblehub.com/greek/3600.htm

The above site lists 4 NT occurrences of this word:
  • Luke (3 occurrences across chapters 2, 16)
  • Acts (1 occurrence across chapters 20)
Idiomatic Lukan Vocabulary: 4 of the 4 NT usages are present in Luke-Acts, reasonably distributed between the two volumes.

Word attested in Marcion: Yes (in gMarcion parallel to Luke 16:24, 16:25)
from oduné: pain, sorrow, distress, of body or mind.
https://biblehub.com/greek/3601.htm
rgprice
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Re: Relationship of gLuke, gMarcion and Acts

Post by rgprice »

rgprice wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:56 am Very interesting gmx. BTW, how are you going about identifying these words? Do they come from a known study? Are you identifying them yourself?
Asking this again. What is your procedure here gmx? Also, what about words that appear in Luke 1,2 & 24 and Acts, but not in Luke 3-23? Also, also, how reliable is attestation of specific words in Marcion?
gmx
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:35 am

Re: Relationship of gLuke, gMarcion and Acts

Post by gmx »

gmx wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:22 am
gmx wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:24 pm
gmx wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:16 am Candidate #1: ὑποστρέφω
https://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_5290.htm

The above site lists 35 NT occurrences of this word:
  • Luke (21 occurrences across chapters 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 17, 19, 23, 24)
  • Acts (11 occurrences across chapters 1, 8, 12, 13, 14, 20, 21, 22, 23)
  • Galatians (1 occurrence)
  • Hebrews (1 occurrence)
  • 2 Peter (1 occurrence)
Idiomatic Lukan Vocabulary: 32 of the 35 NT usages present in Luke-Acts, reasonably distributed between the two volumes.

Word attested in Marcion: Yes (in gMarcion parallels to Luke 23:56 and Luke 24:9).
Candidate #2: εἴη
https://biblehub.com/greek/eie__1510.htm

The above site lists 12 NT occurrences of this word:
  • Luke (7 occurrences across chapters 1, 3, 8, 9, 15, 18, 22)
  • Acts (4 occurrences across chapters 8, 10, 20, 21)
  • John (1 occurrence)
Idiomatic Lukan Vocabulary: 11 of the 12 NT usages are present in Luke-Acts, reasonably distributed between the two volumes.

Word attested in Marcion: Yes (in gMarcion parallel to Luke 18:36)
Candidate #3: odunaó
https://biblehub.com/greek/3600.htm

The above site lists 4 NT occurrences of this word:
  • Luke (3 occurrences across chapters 2, 16)
  • Acts (1 occurrence across chapters 20)
Idiomatic Lukan Vocabulary: 4 of the 4 NT usages are present in Luke-Acts, reasonably distributed between the two volumes.

Word attested in Marcion: Yes (in gMarcion parallel to Luke 16:24, 16:25)
Candidate #4: παραχρῆμα
https://biblehub.com/greek/3916.htm

The above site lists 18 NT occurrences of this word:
  • Luke (10 occurrences across chapters 1, 4, 5, 8, 13, 18, 19, 22)
  • Acts (6 occurrences across chapters 3, 5, 12, 13, 16)
  • Matthew (2 occurences)
Idiomatic Lukan Vocabulary: 16 of the 18 NT usages are present in Luke-Acts, reasonably distributed between the two volumes.

Word attested in Marcion: Yes (in gMarcion parallel to Luke 18:37)
gmx
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:35 am

Re: Relationship of gLuke, gMarcion and Acts

Post by gmx »

rgprice wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 5:19 pm
rgprice wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:56 am Very interesting gmx. BTW, how are you going about identifying these words? Do they come from a known study? Are you identifying them yourself?
Asking this again. What is your procedure here gmx? Also, what about words that appear in Luke 1,2 & 24 and Acts, but not in Luke 3-23? Also, also, how reliable is attestation of specific words in Marcion?
Apologies @rgprice, I missed this question.

I would describe my "procedure here" as haphazard naive inquisition.

My process has been to:
  • identify "characteristic Lukan vocabulary" used in Luke-Acts, find identical vocabulary attested in parallel passages in Marcion's gospel, and see where the data takes me. (I had no idea whether any existed, or even if they did, whether my sub-hobbyist skillset would allow me to identify them.)
  • To identify candidate vocabulary, I am using Characteristic Language Use in Luke. The Search for Reliable Criteria by Adelbert Denaux.
  • I am then finding instances of the candidate word on biblehub.com as per the links in the "candidate" posts I've been making, and looking at the occurrences list and making an arbitrary assessment of whether it looks "Lukan (Luke-Acts) enough".
  • Attestation of the candidate words in gMarcion is determined via The Text of Marcion's Gospel by D T Roth.
The inference would be, if enough examples could be found, this would tend to argue against the notion that Luke used Marcion as a source, and instead support the inverse.

If New Testament occurrences of the "characteristic Lukan vocabulary" are almost exclusively limited to Luke-Acts, and the occurrence is attested in Marcion, then it is simpler to explain its existence in Marcion by Marcion copying Luke, than vice-versa.
Also, what about words that appear in Luke 1,2 & 24 and Acts, but not in Luke 3-23?
I did mention earlier in this thread that the "uniformity" of Luke-Acts was not a specific area of interest in the exercise. If a word primarily only occurs in Luke-Acts, and is reasonably represented across both volumes, then the exercise considers that word to be "Lukan". Performing a similar analysis to differentiate Lukan vocabulary specific to hypothesized redactional layers within Luke may also be an interesting topic -- just not this topic :)

However, it is potentially interesting that the four candidates of Lukan vocabulary postulated thus far in the thread, all of them are present in Luke chapters 1 or 2 as well as in the remainder of Luke. Obviously there is a school of thought that Luke 1/2/24 are of a different style to the remainder of Luke and therefore represent a different author's work, however, it may be that they represent a different "source", incorporated and adapted into the rest of the work by a single compiler, Luke, who has imbued the entire work with his own characteristic vocabulary. Whether that's a convincing argument or not, I'm not qualified to comment on :)
Also, also, how reliable is attestation of specific words in Marcion?
I am only considering it attested in gMarcion when the work by D T Roth referenced above claims a definitive citation in one or more sources. When the reconstruction of Marcion's text is based on rationale like "such and such only specifically mentions some-word but the rest of the verse is unproblematic", I do not consider any words in the "unproblematic not-specifically attested text" to be attested. The candidate word must be explicitly cited in the source.
gmx
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:35 am

Re: Relationship of gLuke, gMarcion and Acts

Post by gmx »

gmx wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:58 pm
gmx wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:22 am
gmx wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:24 pm
gmx wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:16 am Candidate #1: ὑποστρέφω
https://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_5290.htm

The above site lists 35 NT occurrences of this word:
  • Luke (21 occurrences across chapters 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 17, 19, 23, 24)
  • Acts (11 occurrences across chapters 1, 8, 12, 13, 14, 20, 21, 22, 23)
  • Galatians (1 occurrence)
  • Hebrews (1 occurrence)
  • 2 Peter (1 occurrence)
Idiomatic Lukan Vocabulary: 32 of the 35 NT usages present in Luke-Acts, reasonably distributed between the two volumes.

Word attested in Marcion: Yes (in gMarcion parallels to Luke 23:56 and Luke 24:9).
Candidate #2: εἴη
https://biblehub.com/greek/eie__1510.htm

The above site lists 12 NT occurrences of this word:
  • Luke (7 occurrences across chapters 1, 3, 8, 9, 15, 18, 22)
  • Acts (4 occurrences across chapters 8, 10, 20, 21)
  • John (1 occurrence)
Idiomatic Lukan Vocabulary: 11 of the 12 NT usages are present in Luke-Acts, reasonably distributed between the two volumes.

Word attested in Marcion: Yes (in gMarcion parallel to Luke 18:36)
Candidate #3: odunaó
https://biblehub.com/greek/3600.htm

The above site lists 4 NT occurrences of this word:
  • Luke (3 occurrences across chapters 2, 16)
  • Acts (1 occurrence across chapters 20)
Idiomatic Lukan Vocabulary: 4 of the 4 NT usages are present in Luke-Acts, reasonably distributed between the two volumes.

Word attested in Marcion: Yes (in gMarcion parallel to Luke 16:24, 16:25)
Candidate #4: παραχρῆμα
https://biblehub.com/greek/3916.htm

The above site lists 18 NT occurrences of this word:
  • Luke (10 occurrences across chapters 1, 4, 5, 8, 13, 18, 19, 22)
  • Acts (6 occurrences across chapters 3, 5, 12, 13, 16)
  • Matthew (2 occurences)
Idiomatic Lukan Vocabulary: 16 of the 18 NT usages are present in Luke-Acts, reasonably distributed between the two volumes.

Word attested in Marcion: Yes (in gMarcion parallel to Luke 18:37)
Candidate #5: στρατηγός
https://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_4755.htm

The above site lists 10 NT occurrences of this word:
  • Luke (2 occurrences in chapter 22)
  • Acts (8 occurrences across chapters 4, 5, 16)
Idiomatic Lukan Vocabulary: 10 of the 10 NT usages are present in Luke-Acts, skewed towards Acts.

Word attested in Marcion: Yes (in gMarcion parallel to Luke 22:4)
gmx
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:35 am

Re: Relationship of gLuke, gMarcion and Acts

Post by gmx »

gmx wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 3:00 am
gmx wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:58 pm
gmx wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:22 am
gmx wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:24 pm
gmx wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:16 am Candidate #1: ὑποστρέφω
https://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_5290.htm

The above site lists 35 NT occurrences of this word:
  • Luke (21 occurrences across chapters 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 17, 19, 23, 24)
  • Acts (11 occurrences across chapters 1, 8, 12, 13, 14, 20, 21, 22, 23)
  • Galatians (1 occurrence)
  • Hebrews (1 occurrence)
  • 2 Peter (1 occurrence)
Idiomatic Lukan Vocabulary: 32 of the 35 NT usages present in Luke-Acts, reasonably distributed between the two volumes.

Word attested in Marcion: Yes (in gMarcion parallels to Luke 23:56 and Luke 24:9).
Candidate #2: εἴη
https://biblehub.com/greek/eie__1510.htm

The above site lists 12 NT occurrences of this word:
  • Luke (7 occurrences across chapters 1, 3, 8, 9, 15, 18, 22)
  • Acts (4 occurrences across chapters 8, 10, 20, 21)
  • John (1 occurrence)
Idiomatic Lukan Vocabulary: 11 of the 12 NT usages are present in Luke-Acts, reasonably distributed between the two volumes.

Word attested in Marcion: Yes (in gMarcion parallel to Luke 18:36)
Candidate #3: odunaó
https://biblehub.com/greek/3600.htm

The above site lists 4 NT occurrences of this word:
  • Luke (3 occurrences across chapters 2, 16)
  • Acts (1 occurrence across chapters 20)
Idiomatic Lukan Vocabulary: 4 of the 4 NT usages are present in Luke-Acts, reasonably distributed between the two volumes.

Word attested in Marcion: Yes (in gMarcion parallel to Luke 16:24, 16:25)
Candidate #4: παραχρῆμα
https://biblehub.com/greek/3916.htm

The above site lists 18 NT occurrences of this word:
  • Luke (10 occurrences across chapters 1, 4, 5, 8, 13, 18, 19, 22)
  • Acts (6 occurrences across chapters 3, 5, 12, 13, 16)
  • Matthew (2 occurences)
Idiomatic Lukan Vocabulary: 16 of the 18 NT usages are present in Luke-Acts, reasonably distributed between the two volumes.

Word attested in Marcion: Yes (in gMarcion parallel to Luke 18:37)
Candidate #5: στρατηγός
https://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_4755.htm

The above site lists 10 NT occurrences of this word:
  • Luke (2 occurrences in chapter 22)
  • Acts (8 occurrences across chapters 4, 5, 16)
Idiomatic Lukan Vocabulary: 10 of the 10 NT usages are present in Luke-Acts, skewed towards Acts.

Word attested in Marcion: Yes (in gMarcion parallel to Luke 22:4)
Does anyone find this persuasive in terms of indicating Marcion as being dependent upon Luke ?

The presence of idiomatic Lukan vocabulary in parallel passages in Marcion suggests one of the following:
1. gMarcion was dependent upon gLuke
2. gLuke is dependent upon gMarcion, and Acts is dependent upon some proto-Acts source penned by the author of gMarcion
3. Coincidence
4. Misquoting by Tertullian et al
5. My interpretation and correlation of the data is incorrect
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Location: Leipzig, Germany
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Re: Relationship of gLuke, gMarcion and Acts

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

gmx wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 3:14 amDoes anyone find this persuasive in terms of indicating Marcion as being dependent upon Luke ?
Yes, those are good arguments.

I think that one can often see differences in content one way or the other. These linguistic considerations in combination with Acts are much more convincing. If I remember correctly, at one point Peter Kirby ran certain words through a text search program that also showed a very close relationship between Luke and Acts in word usage.
gmx
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:35 am

Re: Relationship of gLuke, gMarcion and Acts

Post by gmx »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 9:14 am
gmx wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 3:14 amDoes anyone find this persuasive in terms of indicating Marcion as being dependent upon Luke ?
Yes, those are good arguments.

I think that one can often see differences in content one way or the other. These linguistic considerations in combination with Acts are much more convincing. If I remember correctly, at one point Peter Kirby ran certain words through a text search program that also showed a very close relationship between Luke and Acts in word usage.
Thanks KK. I have seen textual analysis studies of Luke-Acts that identify the number of common words between the two volumes and compare that with Mt-Acts or Mk-Acts, and which do not find much to differentiate Luke-Acts as a special case.

Maybe that wasn't the right approach (or maybe it was).

I think the next step will need to be more sophisticated and less vocabulary-based, and that's what I'm now considering.

Any suggestions in terms of tools and databases in the public domain, would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
gmx
gryan
Posts: 1120
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:11 am

Re: Relationship of gLuke, gMarcion and Acts

Post by gryan »

gmx wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 3:11 am I have seen textual analysis studies of Luke-Acts that identify the number of common words between the two volumes and compare that with Mt-Acts or Mk-Acts, and which do not find much to differentiate Luke-Acts as a special case.
Did they find that Mk-Acts had one set of common vocabulary, Lk-Acts another, and Mt-Acts still another?
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