lsayre wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:08 am
neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 12:19 pm
Such a minority, without any context of a social relationship, produces a person who lacks the ability even of language.
Nurturing and caring are not slave-master relations.
As to the first, you seem to evade the entire provided context for the evolution of a society built upon the individuals free and voluntary association and free trade in your intentional and skillful demotion of the individual and promotion of the tribal system. Let alone evading rational and reason based family responsibility. I.E., you ultimately accept that "It Takes A (tribally evolved) Village".
Your view of how society evolved is a political ideological one. As far as I am aware it is not based on scholarly research, let alone the experiences of many of us. Your political ideology is your definition of humans and society, it seems to me.
Do you really mean to use words like "intentional"? This is what I was trying to address earlier -- a presumption that outsiders are somehow "intentionally" or "wilfully" blind or only in need of the "light" to understand. This is not a constructive way to view our fellow humans.
lsayre wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:08 amAs to the second, compelled (as in forced) extortion in the name of benevolence toward the needy is exactly that, a master-slave relationship.
Yes, agreed, but that's a simple tautology.
lsayre wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:08 amEvery time you (or I) head to the polls to vote we are intentionally thereby offensively forcing (imposing our will upon) anyone who does not vote as we do to be compelled into the slavery of a submission to our demands.
No I'm not. That's simply not true. Except in someone's imagination. How is anyone else "compelling" me to submit to their demands by voting a different way from how I do? That's simply not so.
lsayre wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:08 amWe are thereby conceding (I.E. submitting) that the tribe transcends the individual, in the whim (mystic) based hope that somehow (how, blank out...) our vote (and its offensive enforcement) will mystically and mysteriously promote some derivative of a "greater good".
Individuals cannot exist without society. Individuals find personal fulfilment of their personal potentials through their participation in a society. Without society we would not even have language.
lsayre wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:08 amWe establish an elitist class (often also via vote) to collect and distribute the sacrificial tribute extorted from us thereby. Thus clearly 'Masters'. Is a man any less a slave if he votes for his Master, let alone votes for the Master who will preside over those of the opposing vote (or be of a different race, or clan, or gang, or opinion, etc...)?
You are talking in the phraseology of old English now. You are channelling someone else's words here. That is not you speaking your own thoughts but someone else's. (One thinks of words like "brainwashed" but that is a misunderstood term, as is the word "cult".)
There really are societies that are true democratic systems where people who are assigned by the society to have responsibilities are held accountable to those societies. One does not have to have a master-slave relationship when part of a society.
lsayre wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:08 amAnd lastly here you evade the force free alternative of voluntary benevolence and charity, individually, or via free and voluntary association. Quite effectively (even if via voting) we accept (or are compelled to accept) whim or feelings derived mysticism. A subset of this being our acceptance (via merely whim/feelings/hope again) that collective wisdom thereby indeed is that which arises from a pool of individual ignorance.
None of that makes sense to me -- it seems to be coming from a view of human nature that I do not recognize or see in other humans or experience in my fellowship with them.
lsayre wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:08 amModern society has been duped (this being the Stockholm Syndrome aspect at play) into subjective submission to tribal force (I.E., into acceptance of being a subject). And much of this stems from being presented with only the various of diverse options that reside under the umbrella of either subjectivism or intrinsicism. A false dichotomy of choice akin to Pascal's Wager. Get them while they are young, and they will accept that only the diverse forms of these two choices are extant and viable options. And they will thereby become incapable of envisioning any other options. Such as objectivism. And again, the operative word here is force (from an offensive perspective). One means whereby to suppress alternatives has always been to play the "cult" card. A subset of this being the "heresy" card.
There is certainly propaganda that has been used to shape our societies. But you seem to have a very cruel and heartless -- I would say "dehumanized" -- view of human nature. It comes back to the black and white view of the fundamentalist thought processes.
You cannot see that your own viewpoint, your view of society, of people, of your ideology, is entirely the product of certain strands of political thought and is not "pure objective reality" as distinct from all other views of thought. That is, I submit, a very dangerous outlook. It contains the seeds of potential tyranny in the guise of freedom -- like so many other anti-human tyrannies have done in the past.
Pure objectivity is a myth and your ideology is yet another myth claiming to be pure objectivity itself.