"Pure objectivity" is a myth

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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neilgodfrey
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"Pure objectivity" is a myth

Post by neilgodfrey »

No, it's not a marxist plot to undermine civilization or a mythicist plot to undermine Christianity.

Myth: Observation of the facts is the first step in the scientific method.

Correction: A very large number of facts exist. No researcher attempts to collect them all. The researcher comes to a question with some knowledge that will guide how they decide to select this or that fact. The researcher has a hypothesis in mind that they want to test or prove and that intention will guide what facts they select to work with. Even if there is no hypothesis in mind, the researcher will have in mind some broad framework of an idea that will determine what probably will be the relevant facts.

Implication: A flat earther, a Christian fundamentalist, a QAnon conspiracy theorist, . . . . they will all point to facts to demonstrate their beliefs. The reason you may not agree with how they interpret those facts or the conclusions they draw from them is because they have a different hypothesis or belief-system that is not being made clear to you. Nothing is to be gained by accusing someone of being "pig headed" or "wilfully ignorant" or "intellectually dishonest" -- unless one can show that they have clear evidence that they are not being honest with their own world-view or belief-system. Someone's working hypothesis might give different weight to certain facts, or different interpretations of them from the one you have. Such disagreements are not signs of dishonesty or stupidity.


Myth: History is about the search for the facts of what happened and once discovered will be objectively true for all time.

Correction: New questions about ourselves are always arising as our society inevitability changes. That will always lead to new questions we ask of the past. We will always see the past in new ways as we ourselves change and learn more about ourselves. While certain facts are true, by themselves they have no meaning until they are placed within a narrative, and narratives will always be subject to interpretation. Example: one history book will say the American Civil War was about states rights; another will say it was to end slavery. To understand the difference, see above's discussion of the myth of "observation of facts".


Resolution? If in the light of the above there can be no single "objective truth" then what's the point of any discussion? The point is to undertake research with a clear view of our own motives, values, interests, and to be constantly aware of how our own motives, values, interests are guiding us in our selection of certain facts and rejection of others and in our interpretation of them.

Ditto for how we engage with other theories and interpretations. We are not dealing only with the facts and reasoning that we see in print before us, but also with a certain theory or belief-system that has determined those facts and arguments. A good researcher will be self-aware and make those things explicit. If they are not clear, the critics have a right to ask for those belief systems that led to those interpretations etc. But they don't have a right to call them "fucking idiots". :facepalm:
andrewcriddle
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Re: "Pure objectivity" is a myth

Post by andrewcriddle »

Granting that none of us are entirely objective some of us are more objective than others.

Andrew Criddle
annotate
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Re: "Pure objectivity" is a myth

Post by annotate »

Neil said: "The point is to undertake research with a clear view of our own motives, values, interests, and to be constantly aware of how our own motives, values, interests are guiding us in our selection of certain facts and rejection of others and in our interpretation of them."

Being as objective as I can be: My motive for a whole lot of my reading is to prove somebody wrong. That's why I became interested in the historicity of Jesus. I want Jesus to be a myth, and be able to prove it, in order to show that all my friends that believe in the Jesus myth (or religion for that matter) are "fucking idiots". :D

Of course, I would use finesse while showing them.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: "Pure objectivity" is a myth

Post by neilgodfrey »

andrewcriddle wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:53 am Granting that none of us are entirely objective some of us are more objective than others.

Andrew Criddle
Little can be gained by simply accusing another of not being "objective enough". Progress in communication from understanding the other's framework, worldview, belief-system. Telling someone they need to adopt your belief system in order to think "objectively" like you do is missing the point. Some frameworks are more accepted in academia but an academic who wants to communicate with a layperson unfamiliar with the academic framework needs to start at square one to avoid talking down to or over the head of a layperson. And even then, the academic needs to be able to explain their framework and justify it. It comes back to demonstrating accountability to all.

It also means attempting to understand and learn the other's belief-system in order to have a meaningful exchange of views.
Last edited by neilgodfrey on Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: "Pure objectivity" is a myth

Post by neilgodfrey »

annotate wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:43 am Neil said: "The point is to undertake research with a clear view of our own motives, values, interests, and to be constantly aware of how our own motives, values, interests are guiding us in our selection of certain facts and rejection of others and in our interpretation of them."

Being as objective as I can be: My motive for a whole lot of my reading is to prove somebody wrong. That's why I became interested in the historicity of Jesus. I want Jesus to be a myth, and be able to prove it, in order to show that all my friends that believe in the Jesus myth (or religion for that matter) are "fucking idiots". :D

Of course, I would use finesse while showing them.

That is not being "as objective as I can be" but being "as honest as I can be". If you can acknowledge that your motive is to debunk then you are being honest about the subjectivity in your research.
annotate
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Re: "Pure objectivity" is a myth

Post by annotate »

neilgodfrey wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:09 am That is not being "as objective as I can be" but being "as honest as I can be". If you can acknowledge that your motive is to debunk then you are being honest about the subjectivity in your research.
Then, hopefully, I'm being objective (as I can be) about my subjectivity.
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MrMacSon
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Re: "Pure objectivity" is a myth

Post by MrMacSon »

annotate wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:43 am My motive for a whole lot of my reading is to prove somebody wrong
The first step might be thinking you have a chance of doing so.
The second step might be knowing you have a chance of doing so.
The best step could be to put your ‘position’ positively & straightforward without reference to the other
Secret Alias
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Re: "Pure objectivity" is a myth

Post by Secret Alias »

Not worth having a conversation with someone lacks the pangs of conscience objectivity or fairness. Good luck in your clandestine guerilla war.
annotate
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Re: "Pure objectivity" is a myth

Post by annotate »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:59 am Not worth having a conversation with someone lacks the pangs of conscience objectivity or fairness. Good luck in your clandestine guerilla war.
Said by someone who is constantly arguing with others trying to prove his point of view correct and the others wrong (as in Neil and Chris).
Secret Alias
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Re: "Pure objectivity" is a myth

Post by Secret Alias »

I like to argue because it gives me an opportunity to test the limits of my commitment to fairness. What idée fixe do I have? On the topic du jour, mythicism, I say that I think 'Jesus' was for Christianity a supernatural being 'Man' known to Jews and Samaritans but I can't completely discount the fact that there was a historical Jesus to whom the 'myth' (for lack of a better word) was applied. I've argued on behalf of the viability of the interpretation of the nomen sacrum IC as 'Man' based on a large part to statements in the early Church Fathers. I've consistently defended scholars like Morton Smith, Bart Ehrman - accredited authorities, anyone "with a degree" over people without degrees or silly ideas. I always give authorities the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps that makes me an "authoritarian." So be it. If there is one 'idea' that I am 'fixated' on it is that our understanding of 'things related to early Christianity' have to be governed or found in the writings of the Church Fathers, that this is the place which becomes the graveyard of many a silly modern theory. I could go down the list but if I continue too much it begins to sound like someone obsessively making the case that he is not obsessive. Again, I among the first to participate at this forum (after having been 'recruited' to its previous incarnation) because it allows me to test the fairness of my arbitration of ideas and at times humor and occasionally off the cuff wit. All, again, for an audience of one.
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