"Pure objectivity" is a myth

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: "Pure objectivity" is a myth

Post by neilgodfrey »

lsayre wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:27 pm “There are no absolutes,” they chatter, blanking out the fact that they are uttering an absolute.

Ayn Rand
I suspect this Ayan Rand quote is a knee-jerk response to the idea that there is no "pure objectivity" in scientific and historical research.

What my OP is entirely consistent with -- and (I think) needs in order to be justified -- is:
  • a belief that the fundamental principles of formal and informal logic are valid and necessary -- "true", if you like, and that they apply universally. Without these there can be no rational discourse or profitable exchange about the results of research.
  • a belief in the fellow humanity of our discourse partners. (As far as I am aware, research in anthropology has demonstrated that there are certain universals in human nature that we must recognize if we are to have respectful discourse when we disagree.)
People change, the world changes, societies change, --- that does not mean that some of us are subhuman and others members of "another species" (such caricatures are dehumanizations that, I believe as an absolute rule, is criminal behaviour -- even the exalting of some persons to super-human angelic status.)

Now one day we may discover that our rules of logic are not so, and that the notion of "human universals" is mistaken, though I think that unlikely -- but that does not change the fact that our best understanding at present is that they are true and they do work. We have to walk by the best lights that we have.

If you tell me that right now I am typing on a block of cheese and looking into a car engine then I will say, as an absolute, that that is not true, but that I am typing on a keyboard and looking into a monitor.

If you tell me that I am not living in Australia but in Benin then I will tell you, with absolute certainty, that you are mistaken.

There really are things that we know "absolutely". There may be philosophical arguments to dispute that statement. But for everyday purposes and for normal exchanges of ideas we can say that it is an error of logic and therefore invalid to argue in a circle -- to begin with the assumption that X is true that what you want to prove is true. e.g.

The Bible is true because God inspired it.

How do you know God inspired it?

Because the BIble says God inspired it.

That is not a valid argument and I can affirm that it is absolutely invalid. (An absolute)

So where does the problem about objectivity arise?

Our understanding of how the universe works is "true" insofar as our conclusions work, they make sense, we can use them to predict certain things, but they are not absolute unchanging god-ordained Truths. We can expect our understanding of the "laws of the universe" to change as we continue to learn more. The good scientist is one who is constantly aware of that fact (it's an absolute fact for normal everyday discussion purposes) and is therefore open to learning new things about how everything works.

It is the same with historical inquiry. There is always a chance that a new cache of writings will be discovered and what we think we know now will change as a result. How we interpret events will also vary depending on our life experiences and the more we learn. All knowledge is provisional. We never know how we will see things tomorrow. Examples could be listed infinitely.

There is also a chance that we may discover that at some point in our present view of past events we have been -- without recognizing it until now -- using flawed logic. That often happens in any field of inquiry. That's why debate and peer review is a good idea, though sometimes a viewpoint can be so taken for granted even the peer reviewers fail to notice flaws for a time.

And one thing historians learn about their craft is that it is never neutral. No history is neutral -- "purely objective". Every historical inquiry is ultimately a quest to find answers to questions that have relevance to us today, here and now. That's why different generations, different persons from different backgrounds, will often rewrite history.

Re-writing history doesn't necessarily mean denying or changing facts. The facts, the events, remain the same. But sometimes a historian will believe other facts, previously overlooked facts, that have not been included in past historical accounts are relevant to answer certain questions.

Other times a historian might have reasons to believe that a particular fact has been misunderstood or interpreted in a lop-sided way that favour one party over another, and that a "fairer" treatment of that fact would be to explain how other people viewed the event.

Ancient history is as difficult to deal with as modern history. In both fields of research so many sources of information we would like are not available to the researcher. (e.g. I heard that the queen's diaries will not be released until 80 years from now.)

So humility is always a prerequisite for any researcher.

There are indisputable (absolute) facts. I can visit a war cemetery and see the evidence of the dead. But how we interpret them, understand them, feel about them, think about them in the light of other facts we have learned and about our own prejudices --- those will be variables across the panorama of human experience.

If that is disconcerting, think about it this way: if we read another person's viewpoint of "the facts" we are likely to understand that person and the group that that author represents a whole lot better.

History is dead and gone. It does not still exist like some cheshire cat grin for us to photograph and report. All we can do is use our tools of logic and reasoning and human experience, mixed with a measure of self-awareness, to reconstruct events in the most honest way we can. --- and be open to the likelihood that someone else will have a different perspective and see things a bit differently.

That's not undermining society. It's building a more cohesive, respectful and understanding society. The alternative is totalitarian censorship and the history as decided by the elites.

There is much more to write; many caveats to the above; many other questions arising about the nature of history -- but I may have written enough here to at least crack one day a new bit of understanding for someone on the question of "objectivity" in history. But this comment is way too long as it is.

It does not mean that there are no such things as absolutes in our human experience. I like a glass of wine. That' an absolute truth and fact. Too much makes me sick -- that's also an absolute truth and fact that I have learned. Absolutes rule -- but history is an exploration and an adventure in learning -- and a way to understanding ourselves and others. That's also a (potential) absolute.
lsayre
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Re: "Pure objectivity" is a myth

Post by lsayre »

Technically, if an alien civilization living 2000 light years from us was observing us from that distance with instruments advanced enough to discern small details, they would be directly observing us in the year 22 CE, such that it is not quite accurate to state that history is dead and gone in an absolute sense.
Chrissy Hansen
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Re: "Pure objectivity" is a myth

Post by Chrissy Hansen »

lsayre wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:09 am Technically, if an alien civilization living 2000 light years from us was observing us from that distance with instruments advanced enough to discern small details, they would be directly observing us in the year 22 CE, such that it is not quite accurate to state that history is dead and gone in an absolute sense.
Of course, they would not be observing it in the ways that humans did. So, in a sense, actually it is dead and all that remains is a shadowy reflection that is being perceived and subjectively dealt with by another species, who we have no reason to think observes, thinks of, or conceptualizes the world around it similarly to us, and therefore would not have a view of 22 CE in the way that people who lived in 22 CE on Earth viewed things or experienced things.

All that remains is the echo in this case, an echo that will be subjectively interpreted.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: "Pure objectivity" is a myth

Post by neilgodfrey »

lsayre wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:09 am Technically, if an alien civilization living 2000 light years from us was observing us from that distance with instruments advanced enough to discern small details, they would be directly observing us in the year 22 CE, such that it is not quite accurate to state that history is dead and gone in an absolute sense.
We are talking about us. (As CH said, the aliens would be talking about what is presently perceived to their experience and interpreting "us" in their own way which would be unlike the way all the different groups of people living in 22 CE perceived what was happening.)

But your own personal past is gone. You cannot retrieve it. Your memory of certain events will no doubt be different from the memory of your parents or neighbours of the same events. All you can do about your own past is attempt to recollect -- or reconstruct it. You can ask your parents about something you recall and you may be surprised that it is not the way you remember it. How do you decide "what is objectively true"? You can't. All you can do is record the memory of your parents and your own present memory. You can attempt to reconcile differences in memories, but that is only creating a third possibility, a third reconstruction of events. And so on.

For us, all we have are remains of the past. We cannot see what happened in the past, and even if we could, it would only be our own perspective and not that of someone else in that resurrected past. The past IS dead and gone. Every historian I have read who writes about the nature of history agrees on that. All history is reconstruction.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: "Pure objectivity" is a myth

Post by neilgodfrey »

I asked, "how can you decide what is objectively true?" in the face of competing memories of your past. I should have added that even at the time of that past event there was no "objectively true" happening: there was your parents' experience and perception and your own. They would not always be exactly the same.
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Re: "Pure objectivity" is a myth

Post by Paul the Uncertain »

lsayre wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:09 am Technically, if an alien civilization living 2000 light years from us was observing us from that distance with instruments advanced enough to discern small details, they would be directly observing us in the year 22 CE, such that it is not quite accurate to state that history is dead and gone in an absolute sense.
Your counterexample earns some scrutiny, rather than facile surrebuttal.

(Seriously? The possibility of expanding the community of scholars to include new contributors with a radically different perspective than those currently publishing is a bug rather than a feature? Well, could be, but a priori undesirable?)

Technically (since you invited that level of discourse), your aliens would be limited by inevitable signal degradation. Terrestial historians suffer signal degradation, too (the universe of material traces of past events is definitionally non-increasing over time, and as material, the traces are subject to the laws of thermodynamics - entropy bites). There is some sense, then, that your aliens really aren't in pronciple much differently situated than human beings.

Although signal degradation can involve "rewriting the past" (when the noise gives rise to seemingly meaningful local combinations of matter, like finding a Roman denarius buried beneath a parking garage in contemporary Montana), the more usual thing is simple loss of information. Was Able Blood, Jr. of Hollis, NH born in 1791 (as the state's copy of the town's records say) or 1796 (as his tombstone says ... if it actually is his) or perhaps some other year (e.g. 1797 is in play if the town records got his birth month wrong as well as the year)?

Note, by the way, that the question is entirely objective. At the time, whenever that was, a birth happened; there is no room for subjectivity about that, it is not a matter of personal perspective. The best available answer today, however, is a subjective probability distribution (or set of them) over the seriously possible years of Abel's birth. Information has been lost (= entropy has increased).

The information needed to resolve the question (assign probability 1 to one particular year) is, in my best judgment, simply and permanently lost to earthbound seekers. Even much of the information that would remarkably compress the set of admissible probability distributions is also lost. All, I think, that terrestial genealogists would more-or-less unformly agree about is that the admissible distributions are bimodal with humps at 1791 and 1796.

Someday, maybe as early as 3797 CE, when the aliens are looking at the relevant recoverable data from Hollis, even that much specificity may be unattainable, even by them, because the relevant uncorrupted signal is not there anymore for them to recover it.

Conclude: the past may never be fully dead and completely lost to all possible sentient observers, but physics guarantees that the past isn't what it used to be, either.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: "Pure objectivity" is a myth

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Earlier you wrote:
History is dead and gone. It does not still exist like some cheshire cat grin for us to photograph and report.
neilgodfrey wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:59 am For us, all we have are remains of the past. We cannot see what happened in the past, and even if we could, it would only be our own perspective and not that of someone else in that resurrected past. The past IS dead and gone. Every historian I have read who writes about the nature of history agrees on that. All history is reconstruction.
I do agree that all history is reconstruction. But what would you say to the contention that this reconstruction is dependent upon taking into account an interpretation of all the still available and remaining evidence from the past, and that to some extent, this exists in the form of a disappearing cheshire cat? Like a coin of Augustus Caesar?
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: "Pure objectivity" is a myth

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Secret Alias wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:01 pm ... I thought the forum was different that ordinary human intercourse. We should try and be honest and 'objective' here. I have no interest in trashing you. None. I think you provide a service which is needed in the world. But here in the sacred halls of BC&H we should try and be 'unworldly' as possible and in fact strive for objectivity and work together for understanding. End of speech.
If only it were.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: "Pure objectivity" is a myth

Post by neilgodfrey »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:48 pm Earlier you wrote:
History is dead and gone. It does not still exist like some cheshire cat grin for us to photograph and report.
neilgodfrey wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:59 am For us, all we have are remains of the past. We cannot see what happened in the past, and even if we could, it would only be our own perspective and not that of someone else in that resurrected past. The past IS dead and gone. Every historian I have read who writes about the nature of history agrees on that. All history is reconstruction.
I do agree that all history is reconstruction. But what would you say to the contention that this reconstruction is dependent upon taking into account an interpretation of all the still available and remaining evidence from the past, and that to some extent, this exists in the form of a disappearing cheshire cat? Like a coin of Augustus Caesar?
Yes, reconstruction necessarily is working with the data. We are reconstructing a scenario and a narrative from the pieces of evidence. We can never reconstruct the way things really and fully were.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: "Pure objectivity" is a myth

Post by Leucius Charinus »

neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:15 pmYes, reconstruction necessarily is working with the data. We are reconstructing a scenario and a narrative from the pieces of evidence. We can never reconstruct the way things really and fully were.
I would contend that any "objectivity" with respect to the interpretation to the data is always going to involve some element(s) of subjectivity in the sense that all and various historical researchers will interpret the data in all sorts of ways depending on what they are attempting to do with it. Historical enquiry basically asks questions about various data sets according to the object of the historical enquiry. Some may be simple specific questions such as when did Marcus Aurelius write his "Meditations"? Others may be far more complex such as when did Paul write his "Epistles"?

Common to all historical investigations, once the object of enquiry has been specified, the next step may be collecting and collating data - evidence - which may be related to it. Data collection is never ending. New discoveries occur. New papers are written. Existing data may be subject to radically different re-interpretations. In this sense historical evidence is "alive" to new interpretation.


History Enquiry concerning Christian Origins

My comment here is that a map of the evidence may help. Potentially it may lead to a greater clarity and as a result greater potential objectivity.

Here I have put together a map for discussion:

Evidence Map: Chronology of the components of Christian Literature
https://www.academia.edu/78665273/Evide ... Literature

Image


If you or anyone else thinks this may be worth discussing then let me know. It may need greater clarification. It may be wrong. It may have bits missing. It may be too minimalistic. It may not make sense to some people. I can accept this stuff. It's just an attempt to draw a map of the evidence underpinning the history of Christian literature.

What it attempts to do is to be comprehensive and complete, such that any element or item of evidence data related to Christian origins can be found in one or another of the boxes on the map. Chronology is notional and not to scale but important chronological periods relating to the history of Christianity can be isolated.

Ignore the small extra boxes which propose alternative chronologies. I am happy not to discuss these here. The rest of the map should reflect the mainstream thinking for the history of Christian literature:

(1) New Testament Canonical literature (NTC) including the LXX or Septuagint.
(2) NT Apocryphal literature (NTA) including the Nag Hammadi Library (NHL).
(3) Ecclesiastical History (EH)
(4) Non-Christian literary sources (NCL)
(5) Archaeological evidence (ARC)
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