Matthean posteriority: Mark's "Mary mother of Joses" vs "Mary mother of the James"

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gryan
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Re: Matthean posteriority: Mark's "Mary mother of Joses" vs "Mary mother of the James"

Post by gryan »

Trees of Life wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:39 am For the record, what precise wording in Acts 12:2 describes James Zebedee's early death for you, gryan?
For the record: In Luke-Acts, when "James and John" are introduced, it is on this one occasion that they are identified as "the sons of Zebedee"(Lk 5:17). In the multiple subsequent mentions of "brothers" named "James" and "John", their shared identity as "sons of Zebedee" is implied.
Trees of Life
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Re: Matthean posteriority: Mark's "Mary mother of Joses" vs "Mary mother of the James"

Post by Trees of Life »

gryan wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:30 pm
Trees of Life wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:39 am For the record, what precise wording in Acts 12:2 describes James Zebedee's early death for you, gryan?
In Luke-Acts, "James and John" are identified as "the sons of Zebedee" only once (Lk 5:17). In the multiple subsequent mentions of "brothers" named "James" and "John", their identity as "sons of Zebedee" is implied.
gryan, as a formality, do you identify or perceive that James son of Zebedee is implied to be the James referred to in Acts 12:2?
gryan
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Re: Matthean posteriority: Mark's "Mary mother of Joses" vs "Mary mother of the James"

Post by gryan »

Trees of Life wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:32 pm gryan, as a formality, do you identify or perceive that James son of Zebedee is implied to be the James referred to in Acts 12:2?
Yes, in Luke-Acts there is a series of mentions of James and John. It begins with their introduction as "sons of Zebedee" and ends with the death of "James the brother of John":

Luke 5:9-10
For Peter and all who were with him were astonished at the catch of fish that they had taken, and so were James and John Zebedee’s sons (Ἰάκωβον καὶ Ἰωάνην υἱοὺς Ζεβεδαίου), who were Simon’s business partners.

Luke 6:14
"When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: Simon (whom he named Peter) and his brother Andrew and James and John (Ἰάκωβον καὶ Ἰωάνην) and Philip and Bartholomew and Matthew and Thomas and James the son of Alphaeus and Simon who was called the Zealot and Judas the son of James and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

Luke 8:51
"When he arrived at the house of Jairus, he did not let anyone go in with him except Peter, James and John (Ἰάκωβον καὶ Ἰωάνην)..."

Luke 9:28
"About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James (Ἰωάνην καὶ Ἰάκωβον) with him and went up onto a mountain to pray."

Luke 9:54
When the disciples James and John (Ἰάκωβος καὶ Ἰωάνης) saw this, they asked, "Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?"

Acts 1:13
When they had entered Jerusalem, they went to the upstairs room where they were staying. Peter and John, and James (Ἰωάνης καὶ Ἰάκωβος), and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James were there.

Acts 12:1-2
About that time King Herod laid hands on some from the church to harm them. He had James, the brother of John (Ἰάκωβον τὸν ἀδελφὸν Ἰωάνου), executed with a sword.

------------

Thus, I perceive and identify the brothers James and John of Acts 12:2 as sons of Zebedee.

I also perceive and identify "Mary the mother of James" at the empty tomb (Luke 24:10 cf. Mark 16:1) as someone other than "the mother of the sons of Zebedee" (ἡ μήτηρ τῶν υἱῶν Ζεβεδαίου, Matt 20:20 and 27:56, probably the "Salome" of Mark 15:40, and 16:1).

Nor do I identify "Mary the mother of James" (Luke 24:10 cf. Mark 16:1) as Mary the mother of Jesus and James the less and Joses.

This all leads back to the crux of my argument which goes against the scholarly consensus:

I identify "Mary the mother of James" (Luke 24:10 cf. Mark 16:1) as the mother of James son of Alphaeus, the great leader of Acts 15 and Gal 2 who gave Paul the right hand of fellowship.

I think the author of GMatt was downplaying the importance of James son of Alphaeus when he changed "Mary the mother of James" to "the other Mary".
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Trees of Life
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Re: Matthean posteriority: Mark's "Mary mother of Joses" vs "Mary mother of the James"

Post by Trees of Life »

gryan
'Yes, in Luke-Acts there is a series of mentions of James and John which begins with their introduction as "sons of Zebedee" and ends with the death of "James the brother of John" '

Luke 5:9-10
For Peter and all who were with him were astonished at the catch of fish that they had taken, and so were James and John Zebedee’s sons (Ἰάκωβον καὶ Ἰωάνην υἱοὺς Ζεβεδαίου), who were Simon’s business partners.

Luke 6:14
"When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: Simon (whom he named Peter), and his brother Andrew; and James, John ( Ἰάκωβον καὶ Ἰωάνην), Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

Luke 8:51
"When he arrived at the house of Jairus, he did not let anyone go in with him except Peter, James and John (Ἰάκωβον καὶ Ἰωάνην)..."

Luke 9:28
"About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James (Ἰωάνην καὶ Ἰάκωβον) with him and went up onto a mountain to pray."

Luke 9:54
When the disciples James and John (Ἰάκωβος καὶ Ἰωάνης) saw this, they asked, "Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?"

Acts 1:13
When they had entered Jerusalem, they went to the upstairs room where they were staying. Peter and John, and James (Ἰωάνης καὶ Ἰάκωβος), and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James were there.

Acts 12:1-2
About that time King Herod laid hands on some from the church to harm them. He had James, the brother of John (Ἰάκωβον τὸν ἀδελφὸν Ἰωάνου), executed with a sword.

------------

'The brothers James and John in Acts 12:2 are sons of Zebedee.' gryan' (before an edit)

Trees of Life:
Good, now the continua for your statement, 'The brothers James and John in Acts 12:2 are sons of Zebedee', can be examined.

Acts 12:1-2
About that time King Herod laid hands on some from the church to harm them. He had James, the brother of John (Ἰάκωβον τὸν ἀδελφὸν Ἰωάνου), executed with a sword.

Pertaining to the continuity of Acts 12:2, the identity of 'James, the brother of John' as written is not witnessed in your quoted verses.
However, there is a continuity for verses that tell us who the principal leaders of early Christianity were—Peter, James and John:

Matthew 10:2
And these be the names of the twelve apostles; the first, Simon, that is called Peter, and Andrew, his brother; James of Zebedee, and John, his brother...

Matthew 17:1
And after six days Jesus took Peter, and James, and John, his brother, and led them aside into an high hill...

Mark 5:37
And he took no man to follow him [And he received not any man to follow him], but Peter, and James, and John, the brother of James.

Mark 9:2
And after six days Jesus took Peter, and James, and John, and led them by themselves alone [and leadeth them by themselves alone] into an high hill; and he was transfigured before them.

Mark 13:3
And when he sat in the mount of Olives against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him by themselves...

Mark 14:33
And he took Peter and James and John with him, and began to dread, and to be distressed.

Luke 5:10
Soothly in like manner James and John, the sons of Zebedee, that were fellows of Simon Peter [which were fellows of Simon Peter]. And Jesus said to Simon, Do not thou dread; now from this time thou shalt take men.

Luke 6:14
Simon, whom he called Peter, and Andrew, his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew...

Luke 8:51
And when he came to the house, he suffered no man to enter with him, but Peter and John and James, and the father and the mother of the damsel.

Luke 9:28
And it was done after these words almost eight days, and he took Peter and James and John, and he ascended into an hill, to pray.

Acts 1:13
And when they were entered into the house, where they dwelled, they went up into the solar [And when they had entered into the supping place, they went up into the higher things, where they dwelt], Peter and John, and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas of James.

Galatians 2:9
and when they had known the grace of God, that was given to me, James, and Peter, and John, which were seen to be the pillars, they gave the right hand of fellowship to me and to Barnabas, that we among the heathen, and they into the circumcision...

Peter, James and John are listed in their particular order throughout the Gospel to signify that they were principal disciples/administrators of the Christian sect.

Jesus Christ made Peter, James and John his principal apostles, representing the attributes of Father, Son and Holy Ghost, as in Galatians 2:9: 'James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars', where Peter/Cephas is chief pillar in the centre, with James on his right and John on his left.
The three archbishops ruled the church from Jerusalem, Rome, and Ephesus. They remained in their roles until circa A.D. 69, A.D. 70 and A.D. 100.

James the first bishop of Jerusalem, that ruled the church from A.D. 33 to A.D. 70, was not a uterine or familial brother of Jesus Christ as can be discerned in his Apocalypse literature:

James' Apocalypse:

"Once when I was sitting deliberating, he opened the door. That one whom you hated and persecuted came in to me. He said to me, "Hail, my brother; my brother, hail." As I raised my face to stare at him, (my) mother said to me, "Do not be frightened, my son, because he said 'My brother' to you (sg.). For you (pl.) were nourished with this same milk. Because of this he calls me "My mother". For he is not a stranger to us. He is your step-brother [...]."

This James, not being James the Less and family of Jesus, as a consequence was surprised at the brotherly greeting, and so James' mother explained their milk-kinship, signifying that they were kinsmen corresponding to the tribe of their birth mothers.

This James, first bishop of Jerusalem, was termed a brother by Yeshua the Lord, consonant within Christian archives in which James the bishop is surnamed, 'the brother of the Lord' and 'the Lord's brother'.

In juxtaposition, in Acts 12:2, on account of their milk-kinship, the James archived there is termed, James the brother of John — in continua¹, James the Less/James, son of Alphaeus/James, brother of Judas/James, son of Joseph the Carpenter.

For James son of Zebedee to be consigned to Acts 12:2, you have the discontinuity of A.D.44 for that year of death, yet he is living in A.D.62, as discernible in the Assumption of the Virgin where evidentiary discourse from the assemblage at the Virgin Mary's departure resolves any discrepancies for the datum: 9 am Sunday January 3 A.D. 62 — the hour, day month and year of the departure of the Virgin Mary. Percipients recognize this datum via Peter: " it has been sixteen years since we have gone forth " + " after twelve years, go out into the world " [The Preaching of Peter]. This is achieved here: April 3 A.D. 33 crucifixion + 12 years attaining April A.D. 45 + 16 years attaining April A.D. 61. John supernaturally arrived at the departure of the Virgin after being summoned while preaching on the ' Lords Day ' [his birthday, January 1] and three days later Mary died about the third hour on the Lord's day, Sunday.

In the discourse of Mary and the apostles they identify James son of Zebedee esoterically: 'The Jews hated James on account of him being called the Lord's brother' + 'James the blessed apostle, who was surnamed the brother of the our Lord' + ' being one of the sons of thunder' + ' ye the three of whom he took with him to the mountain'.


¹ viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4607&p=141585#p141585
gryan
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Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:11 am

Re: Matthean posteriority: Mark's "Mary mother of Joses" vs "Mary mother of the James"

Post by gryan »

Trees of Life wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 4:48 pm gryan
'Yes, in Luke-Acts there is a series of mentions of James and John which begins with their introduction as "sons of Zebedee" and ends with the death of "James the brother of John" '

Luke 5:9-10
For Peter and all who were with him were astonished at the catch of fish that they had taken, and so were James and John Zebedee’s sons (Ἰάκωβον καὶ Ἰωάνην υἱοὺς Ζεβεδαίου), who were Simon’s business partners.

Luke 6:14
"When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: Simon (whom he named Peter), and his brother Andrew; and James, John ( Ἰάκωβον καὶ Ἰωάνην), Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

Luke 8:51
"When he arrived at the house of Jairus, he did not let anyone go in with him except Peter, James and John (Ἰάκωβον καὶ Ἰωάνην)..."

Luke 9:28
"About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James (Ἰωάνην καὶ Ἰάκωβον) with him and went up onto a mountain to pray."

Luke 9:54
When the disciples James and John (Ἰάκωβος καὶ Ἰωάνης) saw this, they asked, "Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?"

Acts 1:13
When they had entered Jerusalem, they went to the upstairs room where they were staying. Peter and John, and James (Ἰωάνης καὶ Ἰάκωβος), and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James were there.

Acts 12:1-2
About that time King Herod laid hands on some from the church to harm them. He had James, the brother of John (Ἰάκωβον τὸν ἀδελφὸν Ἰωάνου), executed with a sword.

------------

'The brothers James and John in Acts 12:2 are sons of Zebedee.' gryan' (before an edit)

Trees of Life:
Good, now the continua for your statement, 'The brothers James and John in Acts 12:2 are sons of Zebedee', can be examined.

Acts 12:1-2
About that time King Herod laid hands on some from the church to harm them. He had James, the brother of John (Ἰάκωβον τὸν ἀδελφὸν Ἰωάνου), executed with a sword.

Pertaining to the continuity of Acts 12:2, the identity of 'James, the brother of John' as written is not witnessed in your quoted verses.
However, there is a continuity for verses that tell us who the principal leaders of early Christianity were—Peter, James and John:

Matthew 10:2
And these be the names of the twelve apostles; the first, Simon, that is called Peter, and Andrew, his brother; James of Zebedee, and John, his brother...

Matthew 17:1
And after six days Jesus took Peter, and James, and John, his brother, and led them aside into an high hill...

Mark 5:37
And he took no man to follow him [And he received not any man to follow him], but Peter, and James, and John, the brother of James.

Mark 9:2
And after six days Jesus took Peter, and James, and John, and led them by themselves alone [and leadeth them by themselves alone] into an high hill; and he was transfigured before them.

Mark 13:3
And when he sat in the mount of Olives against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him by themselves...

Mark 14:33
And he took Peter and James and John with him, and began to dread, and to be distressed.

Luke 5:10
Soothly in like manner James and John, the sons of Zebedee, that were fellows of Simon Peter [which were fellows of Simon Peter]. And Jesus said to Simon, Do not thou dread; now from this time thou shalt take men.

Luke 6:14
Simon, whom he called Peter, and Andrew, his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew...

Luke 8:51
And when he came to the house, he suffered no man to enter with him, but Peter and John and James, and the father and the mother of the damsel.

Luke 9:28
And it was done after these words almost eight days, and he took Peter and James and John, and he ascended into an hill, to pray.

Acts 1:13
And when they were entered into the house, where they dwelled, they went up into the solar [And when they had entered into the supping place, they went up into the higher things, where they dwelt], Peter and John, and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas of James.

Galatians 2:9
and when they had known the grace of God, that was given to me, James, and Peter, and John, which were seen to be the pillars, they gave the right hand of fellowship to me and to Barnabas, that we among the heathen, and they into the circumcision...

Peter, James and John are listed in their particular order throughout the Gospel to signify that they were principal disciples/administrators of the Christian sect.

Jesus Christ made Peter, James and John his principal apostles, representing the attributes of Father, Son and Holy Ghost, as in Galatians 2:9: 'James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars', where Peter/Cephas is chief pillar in the centre, with James on his right and John on his left.
The three archbishops ruled the church from Jerusalem, Rome, and Ephesus. They remained in their roles until circa A.D. 69, A.D. 70 and A.D. 100.

James the first bishop of Jerusalem, that ruled the church from A.D. 33 to A.D. 70, was not a uterine or familial brother of Jesus Christ as can be discerned in his Apocalypse literature:

James' Apocalypse:

"Once when I was sitting deliberating, he opened the door. That one whom you hated and persecuted came in to me. He said to me, "Hail, my brother; my brother, hail." As I raised my face to stare at him, (my) mother said to me, "Do not be frightened, my son, because he said 'My brother' to you (sg.). For you (pl.) were nourished with this same milk. Because of this he calls me "My mother". For he is not a stranger to us. He is your step-brother [...]."

This James, not being James the Less and family of Jesus, as a consequence was surprised at the brotherly greeting, and so James' mother explained their milk-kinship, signifying that they were kinsmen corresponding to the tribe of their birth mothers.

This James, first bishop of Jerusalem, was termed a brother by Yeshua the Lord, consonant within Christian archives in which James the bishop is surnamed, 'the brother of the Lord' and 'the Lord's brother'.

In juxtaposition, in Acts 12:2, on account of their milk-kinship, the James archived there is termed, James the brother of John — in continua¹, James the Less/James, son of Alphaeus/James, brother of Judas/James, son of Joseph the Carpenter.

For James son of Zebedee
to be consigned to Acts 12:2, you have the discontinuity of A.D.44 for that year of death, yet he is living in A.D.62, as discernible in the Assumption of the Virgin where evidentiary discourse from the assemblage at the Virgin Mary's departure resolves any discrepancies for the datum: 9 am Sunday January 3 A.D. 62 — the hour, day month and year of the departure of the Virgin Mary. Percipients recognize this datum via Peter: " it has been sixteen years since we have gone forth " + " after twelve years, go out into the world " [The Preaching of Peter]. This is achieved here: April 3 A.D. 33 crucifixion + 12 years attaining April A.D. 45 + 16 years attaining April A.D. 61. John supernaturally arrived at the departure of the Virgin after being summoned while preaching on the ' Lords Day ' [his birthday, January 1] and three days later Mary died about the third hour on the Lord's day, Sunday.

In the discourse of Mary and the apostles they identify James son of Zebedee esoterically: 'The Jews hated James on account of him being called the Lord's brother' + 'James the blessed apostle, who was surnamed the brother of the our Lord' + ' being one of the sons of thunder' + ' ye the three of whom he took with him to the mountain'.


¹ viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4607&p=141585#p141585
"Trees of Life"

You have obviously put much more time into this topic than I have. I respect your detailed reading in non-canonical literature regarding the identity of the Jameses, and so I leave your post complete for all readers to examine and consider closely.

As for me, I am not convinced by your methods or your conclusion that the James who died according to Acts 12:2 was "James the Less/James, son of Alphaeus/James, brother of Judas/James, son of Joseph the Carpenter"-- not James son of Zebedee.

Although my views depart from scholarly consensus on many points, I am solidly in the mainstream when I identify the brothers James and John of Acts 12:2 as sons of Zebedee.
gryan
Posts: 1120
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:11 am

Re: Matthean posteriority: Mark's "Mary mother of Joses" vs "Mary mother of the James"

Post by gryan »

gryan wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:43 pm
...Luke-Acts there is a series of mentions of James and John. It begins with their introduction as "sons of Zebedee" and ends with the death of "James the brother of John":

Luke 5:9-10
For Peter and all who were with him were astonished at the catch of fish that they had taken, and so were James and John Zebedee’s sons (Ἰάκωβον καὶ Ἰωάνην υἱοὺς Ζεβεδαίου), who were Simon’s business partners.

Luke 6:14
"When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: Simon (whom he named Peter) and his brother Andrew and James and John (Ἰάκωβον καὶ Ἰωάνην) and Philip and Bartholomew and Matthew and Thomas and James the son of Alphaeus and Simon who was called the Zealot and Judas the son of James and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

Luke 8:51
"When he arrived at the house of Jairus, he did not let anyone go in with him except Peter, James and John (Ἰάκωβον καὶ Ἰωάνην)..."

Luke 9:28
"About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James (Ἰωάνην καὶ Ἰάκωβον) with him and went up onto a mountain to pray."

Luke 9:54
When the disciples James and John (Ἰάκωβος καὶ Ἰωάνης) saw this, they asked, "Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?"

Acts 1:13
When they had entered Jerusalem, they went to the upstairs room where they were staying. Peter and John, and James (Ἰωάνης καὶ Ἰάκωβος), and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James were there.

Acts 12:1-2
About that time King Herod laid hands on some from the church to harm them. He had James, the brother of John (Ἰάκωβον τὸν ἀδελφὸν Ἰωάνου), executed with a sword.

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