Matthean posteriority: Mark's "Mary mother of Joses" vs "Mary mother of the James"

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gryan
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Matthean posteriority: Mark's "Mary mother of Joses" vs "Mary mother of the James"

Post by gryan »

Mark 15:47-16:1
"Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses (Μαρία ἡ Ἰωσῆτος) saw where he was laid. When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary [the mother] of the James (Μαρία ἡ τοῦ Ἰακώβου), and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body".

Lk 23:55-24:1, 10
The women who had come with Jesus from Galilee followed, and they saw the tomb and how His body was placed. Then they returned to prepare spices and perfumes. And they rested on the Sabbath, according to the commandment. On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women came to the tomb, bringing the spices they had prepared...
It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary [the mother] of James (Μαρία ἡ Ἰακώβου), and the other women with them

Matt 27:59-61 and 28:1
So Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut into the rock. Then he rolled a great stone across the entrance to the tomb and went away. Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (ἡ ἄλλη Μαρία) were sitting there opposite the tomb.

After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (ἡ ἄλλη Μαρία) went to see the tomb.

What is going on here?

In Mark:

Mary the mother of Joses (Μαρία ἡ Ἰωσῆτος) at the burial and Mary [the mother] of the James (Μαρία ἡ τοῦ Ἰακώβου) at the empty tomb are two different women named Mary, both with sons named James.

"Mary of Joses" (Μαρία ἡ Ἰωσῆτος) is the mother of Jesus and his brothers "James, Joses [aka "James the less and Joses" Mk 15:40] Judas, and Simon. And his sisters..." Mk 6:3

"Mary of the James" (Μαρία ἡ τοῦ Ἰακώβου) is the mother of James son of Alphaeus who is one of the 12.

In Luke:

Jesus mother is identified as Mary, but GLuke omits all three Markan identifications of Jesus' brothers by name (Mk 6:3, 15:40 and 15:47).

"Mary of James" (Μαρία ἡ Ἰακώβου), in the absences of any "James" named as Jesus' brother, is obviously "James son of Alphaeus", one of the 12. GMark's direct article for "the James" (Μαρία ἡ τοῦ Ἰακώβου) is significant. Note that Joses has no such direct article (Μαρία ἡ Ἰωσῆτος). Lk omits Mk's direct article since, in Lk's narrative, there no need to emphasize that this is the qualitatively greater leader named "James" (a "great", μέγας, servant leader in the model of Mark 10:43, cf Gal 2 and Acts 15, the pillar James) as distinguished from Jesus' brother, "the lesser, τοῦ μικροῦ, James" (cf. Gal 1 James the Lord's brother).

In Matt:

Mark's "Mary of Joses" at the burial (erased in GLk), is replaced by "the other Mary".

Mark's (and Luke's) "Mary of James" at the empty tomb becomes "the other Mary" too, and thus her identity as the mother of James son of Alphaeus is erased.

By replacing two different women-- Mark's "Mary of Joses" and "Mary of the James" --with one label "the other Mary", GMatt makes it impossible to identify Mary at the empty tomb as the mother of "James son of Alphaeus".

imho, GMatt has a pattern of erasing the name of GMark's "James son of Alphaeus".
1) It happens when "Mary the mother of the James" becomes "the other Mary".
2) And it happens when authorial Markan call story of "James son of Alphaeus", the tax collector, becomes the call story of "Matthew", as I have argued here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9953
Last edited by gryan on Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
rgprice
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Re: Matthean posteriority: Mark's "Mary mother of Joses" vs "Mary mother of the James"

Post by rgprice »

So, you would argue then, that Mark 15:40-16:8 is "original" to GMark I assume?
gryan
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Re: Matthean posteriority: Mark's "Mary mother of Joses" vs "Mary mother of the James"

Post by gryan »

rgprice wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:34 am So, you would argue then, that Mark 15:40-16:8 is "original" to GMark I assume?
Not arguing critically on that question, but rather working with canonical Mark, as understood in text critical terms, based on manuscript evidence. This is the "Mark" echoed in canonical Lk and Mtt.

I do not take the reconstruction of Marcion's canon in the minimalist sense of presuming that if there is no attestation, there was no prior existence.

I think the author of GMatt had access to something pretty close to our canonical GMk (which he may have memorized) and also a written copy of canonical GLk.

Also, think the author of canonical GMk had a written copy of canonical Galatians. In Galatians (as I read it, and as I think Mk read it) there are two Jameses vying for leadership in Jerusalem. So it was when historical Paul, the author of Galatians visited Jerusalem. He met two Jameses: James the Lord's brother, Mk's James the Less, and James the pillar/Mk's James son of Alphaeus.
Last edited by gryan on Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
rgprice
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Re: Matthean posteriority: Mark's "Mary mother of Joses" vs "Mary mother of the James"

Post by rgprice »

Well I think pretty clear the writer of Mark considered James Zebedee to be James the pillar. The three pillars are James, John and Peter...
gryan
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Re: Matthean posteriority: Mark's "Mary mother of Joses" vs "Mary mother of the James"

Post by gryan »

rgprice wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:58 am Well I think pretty clear the writer of Mark considered James Zebedee to be James the pillar. The three pillars are James, John and Peter...
I know that is a widely held view (going back to Augustine's commentary on Galatians), but I have come to an alternative view. As I read Mark, the author knew that James Zebedee was going to die before the events described in Gal 2 and Acts 15 between "James" and Paul. James Zebedee's early death described in Acts 12 was presaged in Jesus' words:

Mk 10:35
Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to Jesus and declared, “Teacher, we want You to do for us whatever we ask.”

36“What do you want Me to do for you?” He inquired.

37They answered, “Grant that one of us may sit at Your right hand and the other at Your left in Your glory.”

38“You do not know what you are asking,” Jesus replied. “Can you drink the cup I will drink, or be baptized with the baptism I will undergo?”

39“We can,” the brothers answered.

“You will drink the cup that I drink,” Jesus said, “and you will be baptized with the baptism that I undergo..."
----------
As after these words predicting the death of James on of Zebedee, there is another "James" listening to Jesus' teaching on what it means to be truly "great" in the sense that the James of Acts 15 and Gal 2 was "great" when he affirmed Paul's Gentile mission to "all":

"Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be the slave of all." (Mk 10:43-44)
Trees of Life
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Re: Matthean posteriority: Mark's "Mary mother of Joses" vs "Mary mother of the James"

Post by Trees of Life »

gryan wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:07 am
rgprice wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:58 am Well I think pretty clear the writer of Mark considered James Zebedee to be James the pillar. The three pillars are James, John and Peter...
I know that is a widely held view (going back to Augustine's commentary on Galatians), but I have come to an alternative view. As I read Mark, the author knew that James Zebedee was going to die before the events described in Gal 2 and Acts 15 between "James" and Paul. James Zebedee's early death described in Acts 12...

Where in Acts 12 is James Zebedee's early death described?
gryan
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Re: Matthean posteriority: Mark's "Mary mother of Joses" vs "Mary mother of the James"

Post by gryan »

Trees of Life wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 8:09 am
gryan wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:07 am
rgprice wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:58 am Well I think pretty clear the writer of Mark considered James Zebedee to be James the pillar. The three pillars are James, John and Peter...
I know that is a widely held view (going back to Augustine's commentary on Galatians), but I have come to an alternative view. As I read Mark, the author knew that James Zebedee was going to die before the events described in Gal 2 and Acts 15 between "James" and Paul. James Zebedee's early death described in Acts 12...

Where in Acts 12 is James Zebedee's early death described?
Acts 12:2
"He [King Herod] had James, the brother of John, put to death with the sword."
Trees of Life
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Re: Matthean posteriority: Mark's "Mary mother of Joses" vs "Mary mother of the James"

Post by Trees of Life »

gryan wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:01 am
Trees of Life wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 8:09 am
gryan wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:07 am
rgprice wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:58 am Well I think pretty clear the writer of Mark considered James Zebedee to be James the pillar. The three pillars are James, John and Peter...
I know that is a widely held view (going back to Augustine's commentary on Galatians), but I have come to an alternative view. As I read Mark, the author knew that James Zebedee was going to die before the events described in Gal 2 and Acts 15 between "James" and Paul. James Zebedee's early death described in Acts 12...

Where in Acts 12 is James Zebedee's early death described?
Acts 12:2
"He [King Herod] had James, the brother of John, put to death with the sword."
And where do you see James Zebedee's early death described in Acts 12.2?
gryan
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Re: Matthean posteriority: Mark's "Mary mother of Joses" vs "Mary mother of the James"

Post by gryan »

What other significant leader named James is there in Lk-Acts (or the NT) who is usually (or, to my knowledge always) identified in relation to his brother named John?
Trees of Life
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Re: Matthean posteriority: Mark's "Mary mother of Joses" vs "Mary mother of the James"

Post by Trees of Life »

gryan wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:40 am What other significant leader named James is there in Lk-Acts (or the NT) who is usually (or, to my knowledge always) identified in relation to his brother named John?
It's immethodical to ask a question before answering first, 'And where do you see James Zebedee's early death described in Acts 12.2?'

Acts 12:2
"He [King Herod] had James, the brother of John, put to death with the sword."

For the record, what precise wording in Acts 12:2 describes James Zebedee's early death for you, gryan?
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