Simon Magus = Marcion: Who has suggested this?

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yakovzutolmai
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Re: Simon Magus = Marcion: Who has suggested this?

Post by yakovzutolmai »

neilgodfrey wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 10:27 pm
yakovzutolmai wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 9:32 pm. . . I have heard brilliant arguments placing the generation of the Pauline literature around Cyprus, among the last Herodians, shortly after the Kitos War. In my own narrative, it would be that this Pauline literature is a reaction to the Kitos War, which I interpret as a forgotten last gasp of the James cult's version of Christianity.

So, the villain of Magus is a key element of the Pauline perspective. You have 115-135, a solid intellectual generation, for the Kitos War to paint Jamesian and Simonian ideas as wicked.
Can you point me to what you consider to be the better sources for these Kitos War connections?
Here is a discussion of the relevant Pauline hypothesis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81ZNBNoDH_4

As for the rest, my own perspective on Jamesian Christianity ties it intimately to the Babylonian Jews. The evidence is circumstantial but in the primary sources. The Eastern front of the Kitos war saw Mesopotamian Jews rise up against the Roman invasion of Babylon. That's notable, and doesn't seem necessarily linked to the situation in Libya/Egypt/Cyprus/Judea. The Romans were attacking Osroes of Parthia who is plausibly descended from the famous Izates.

My hypothesis about Jamesianism is that it (in contrast to the Christianity of the gospels) is primarily a transposition of the Babylonian martial cult into Judean messianism. Evidence for this includes insinuations on Julius Pantera and the Paulina story in Josephus which appears to mock the temple ceremony for Marduk. Also, the synthesis of the Ziggurat temple maiden into the Syrian goddess via Helena as the Magdalene (of the heavenly tower). Melchizedek is also an analogue to Marduk. I suspect that all Semitic peoples of the Ancient Near East were accounted as "lost Israel" in this cult. So the Assyrian/Syrian/Amorite/Chaldean and Jew alike. And that Jamesian messianism was nothing short of Assyrian restorationism with invocations of the Babylonian golden age. I also suspect that many Jews, perhaps even a majority, were aligned with this way of thinking until after Kitos. These would be the Ebionites etc.

I interpret the Kitos war as an expression of forgotten neo-Jamesianism. There might not have been a consensus on religious beliefs, but there seems to have been a consensus on fervor. As if the Kitos uprising was a second century Qanon movement among populist Israelites.

The dating of Paul's letters to ca 120 would mean that they would have to include an unavoidable reaction to neo-Jamesianism. Locating their provenance to political events on Cyprus, in such close proximity to the fact that Jewish violence in Cyprus was so severe that they were banned from setting foot on the island. Perhaps Pauline Christianity was an antidote to that hatred.

There aren't any good scholars for Roman era Assyria. Not until the Sassanid period. It's more or less a black hole, although there's plenty of circumstantial evidence. For instance, positing that Babylonian Jews rose up to defend Osroes because "Jews hated Rome and wanted revenge" is rather naive and ignores much important known nuance.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Simon Magus = Marcion: Who has suggested this?

Post by MrMacSon »

yakovzutolmai wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 5:42 pm
... The Eastern front of the Kitos war saw Mesopotamian Jews rise up against the Roman invasion of Babylon. That's notable, and doesn't seem necessarily linked to the situation in Libya/Egypt/Cyprus/Judea. The Romans were attacking Osroes of Parthia who is plausibly descended from the famous Izates.

My hypothesis about Jamesianism is that it...is primarily a transposition of the Babylonian martial cult into Judean messianism ...

I interpret the Kitos war as an expression of forgotten neo-Jamesianism. There might not have been a consensus on religious beliefs, but there seems to have been a consensus on fervor. As if the Kitos uprising was a second century Qanon movement among populist Israelites.

Are you referring to the whole Kito war being an expression of neo-Jamesianism or just the Eastern Front of it ?
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Simon Magus = Marcion: Who has suggested this?

Post by neilgodfrey »

yakovzutolmai wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 5:42 pm
Here is a discussion of the relevant Pauline hypothesis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81ZNBNoDH_4
Thank you for the update. There were details I could not catch (some talking over others, assuming listeners knew what was being addressed?) ---

What is the evidence for Sergiuis Paulus and Erastus belonging to the second century?

What was the reference to names in Suetonius during reign of Domitian coinciding with Paul's time?

Hope someone can bring me up to date with this info.
yakovzutolmai
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Re: Simon Magus = Marcion: Who has suggested this?

Post by yakovzutolmai »

MrMacSon wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 6:01 pm
Are you referring to the whole Kito war being an expression of neo-Jamesianism or just the Eastern Front of it ?
The Eastern Front would be Israelites interpreting Osroes - whom I believe could possibly be the son of Izates - as Caliph. However, they would be following that vague Eastern tradition of proto-Christianity which is unclear to us.

I think the Western Front represents Jews without a political connection to Osroes who are Jamesians and are interpreting world events as the trigger for the second coming and started their war with that in mind.

Thus, I find the Kitos War to both be a representation of Jamesian Christianity (which we assume ended with the loss of the zealots during the 65-70 war), but also the end of that particular sect of zealotry.

At the moment, I am assuming that the Kitos War triggered the Pauline corpus and tradition which stole the flame from the defunct Jamesians with Cyprus as a locus. Early catholicism, the Christian scripture and so forth start after the Bar Kokhba war which was about a final schism between Christianity generally and Judaism. Rather, I think the Pharisees and Judean patriots decided to accede to Christian zeitgeist and were deeply disappointed when Christians didn't rally behind bar Kokhba. My personal interpretation is that other than recalcitrant Pharisees, Judaism itself had in the majority become more Christian by the middle first century. It was more about disagreements between Jamesian and Ananian/Philonic variations.

So while bar Kokhba provoked Christians to develop their own scripture, it also provoked Jews under Akiva to redact the oral tradition to minimize Christian and messianic elements.
yakovzutolmai
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Re: Simon Magus = Marcion: Who has suggested this?

Post by yakovzutolmai »

neilgodfrey wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 12:23 am
yakovzutolmai wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 5:42 pm
Here is a discussion of the relevant Pauline hypothesis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81ZNBNoDH_4
Thank you for the update. There were details I could not catch (some talking over others, assuming listeners knew what was being addressed?) ---

What is the evidence for Sergiuis Paulus and Erastus belonging to the second century?

What was the reference to names in Suetonius during reign of Domitian coinciding with Paul's time?

Hope someone can bring me up to date with this info.
I'm not sure of the full argument, and I don't believe it has been written down. However, the evidence would be an inscription I think was mentioned, plus some comparison of personages between different Pauline epistles considering theories on the different phases of composition.

My interest comes more from the other direction of history where I see the Kitos War as a catalyst for this change, which is why I find the hypothesis compelling.

There were some very salacious things said about Kitos War combatants which apparently many historians discount, however I find the extremity of certain accused acts to correspond to my interpretation of Jamesian theology by way of Eisenmann's discussion of Jamesians as Jewish zealots. Thus, I interpret Kitos as the definitive end of Jamesianism, whatever it was, and this left a suitable vacuum for Pauline beliefs.
dbz
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Re: Simon Magus = Marcion: Who has suggested this?

Post by dbz »

[n. 50] In later traditions Simon likewise resembles Marcion to a significant degree, especially in the Pseudo-Clementines. See Hans Joachim Schoeps, Jewish Christianity: Factional Disputes in the Early Church (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1969), 16; Hajo U. Meyboom, “Marcion en Paulus in de Clementijnen,” Theologisch Tijdschrift 25 (1891): 1–46; A. Salles, “Simon le Magicien ou Marcion?,” VC 12 (1958): 197–224; Frédéric Manns, “Les Pseudo-Clémentines (‘Homélies’ et ‘Reconnaissances’): état de la question,” Liber Annuus 53 (2003): 175. Cf. Karl Shuve, “The Doctrine of the False Pericopes and Other Late Antique Approaches to the Problem of Scripture’s Unity,” in Nouvelles intrigues pseudo-clementines = Plots in the Pseudo-Clementine romance: actes du deuxième colloque international sur la litterature apocryphe chrétienne, Lausanne-Genève, 30 août-2 septembre 2006, ed. Frédéric Amsler et al. (Prahins: Éditions du Zèbre, 2008), 441; Han J.W. Drijvers, “Adam and the True Prophet in the Pseudo-Clemetines,” in Loyalitätskonflikte in der Religionsgeschichte: Festschrift für Carsten Colpe, ed. Christoph Elsas and Hans Gerhard Kippenberg (Würzburg: Königshausen und Neumann, 1990), 320; Donald H. Carlson, Jewish-Christian Interpretation of the Pentateuch in the Pseudo-Clementines (Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press, 2013).

According to Irenaeus’s description of Simon, he, like Marcion, rejected the prophetic writings and drew on Pauline traditions (specifically the Pauline language of salvation by grace rather than works [Eph 2:8–9, cf. Gal 2:16, Rom 3:28]): “Moreover, the prophets uttered their predictions under the inspiration of those angels who formed the world; for which reason those who place their trust in him and Helena no longer regarded them, but, as being free, live as they please; for men are saved through his grace, and not on account of their own righteous works (secundum enim ipsius gratiam saluari homines, sed non secundum operas iustas)” (A.H. 1.23.3).

Fragment 13, preserved in Hippolytus, Elenchos 6.19 gives χάρις where the Latin has gratia; it breaks off before the final part of the sentence, but it is a safe assumption that opera translates the Pauline word ἔργα.

(p. 35)
Dulk, Matthijs den (2018). Between Jews and Heretics: Refiguring Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-351-24347-6.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Simon Magus = Marcion: Who has suggested this?

Post by neilgodfrey »

yakovzutolmai wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:12 pmHowever, the evidence would be an inscription I think was mentioned, plus some comparison of personages between different Pauline epistles considering theories on the different phases of composition.
Any chance you or someone can provide details, please?

What is the inscription? What are the names being compared -- and in what sources?
yakovzutolmai wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:12 pm]There were some very salacious things said about Kitos War combatants which apparently many historians discount
What are these "salacious things"? By whom? when, where?

Many thanks
N
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DCHindley
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Re: Simon Magus = Marcion: Who has suggested this?

Post by DCHindley »

neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:01 am
yakovzutolmai wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:12 pmHowever, the evidence would be an inscription I think was mentioned, plus some comparison of personages between different Pauline epistles considering theories on the different phases of composition.
Any chance you or someone can provide details, please?

What is the inscription? What are the names being compared -- and in what sources?
yakovzutolmai wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:12 pm]There were some very salacious things said about Kitos War combatants which apparently many historians discount
What are these "salacious things"? By whom? when, where?

Many thanks
N
I think the reference is to the rumor that the Jewish rebels were actually eating the dead bodies of the Greeks they have killed. While I think this is down the same alley as the charges that Jews/Christians/Cult of Dionysius have been accused of over the centuries, I have seen one paper that seems to take the position that the rebels really did eat their Greek victims.

Unfortunately, I do not remember exact details, but I'm sure anyone with search skills can find it. It was kind of "out there," in my humble opinion.

The salacious part might be determining what particular members of the Greek victim's bodies were reportedly being consumed, if you catch my drift. Think Jeffrey Dahlmer, if you happen to follow grisly sociopaths.
yakovzutolmai
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Re: Simon Magus = Marcion: Who has suggested this?

Post by yakovzutolmai »

DCHindley wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:56 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:01 am
yakovzutolmai wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:12 pmHowever, the evidence would be an inscription I think was mentioned, plus some comparison of personages between different Pauline epistles considering theories on the different phases of composition.
Any chance you or someone can provide details, please?

What is the inscription? What are the names being compared -- and in what sources?
yakovzutolmai wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:12 pm]There were some very salacious things said about Kitos War combatants which apparently many historians discount
What are these "salacious things"? By whom? when, where?

Many thanks
N
I think the reference is to the rumor that the Jewish rebels were actually eating the dead bodies of the Greeks they have killed. While I think this is down the same alley as the charges that Jews/Christians/Cult of Dionysius have been accused of over the centuries, I have seen one paper that seems to take the position that the rebels really did eat their Greek victims.

Unfortunately, I do not remember exact details, but I'm sure anyone with search skills can find it. It was kind of "out there," in my humble opinion.

The salacious part might be determining what particular members of the Greek victim's bodies were reportedly being consumed, if you catch my drift. Think Jeffrey Dahlmer, if you happen to follow grisly sociopaths.
I was thinking more along the lines of the rebels wearing the entrails of defeated combatants as garments.

The practice invokes the Dead Sea Scrolls concept of the saints shedding the flesh. It reminds of zealots who belief a transcendence of flesh is nigh. Sorry to say.

While it's comforting to think that the gospel of Christ's love message is so compelling, it spread like wildfire through the Middle East, we don't actually see it show up in force until the third century.

There's an area of Mesopotamia called the Middle East Steppe. I have a notion that this is where Jews and Israelites ply (Arabs cut across the desert and into Western Arabia). This is where you have traders, mercenaries and nomads who first embrace Christianity, notably during "Anileus and Asineus" and later during Kitos. From this area, it spreads eventually to Syria and Palestine by the middle to late 2d century. With an analogue in Asia Minor and Egypt, and competition between them concluding with the catholicizer movement.

We have next to no documentation of early Eastern Christianity.

As an edit, when I reference Anileus's kingdom and this ecoregion, irrespective of my own hypotheses, I'm invoking the concept of Messiah ben Joseph, whom I believe was a separate anticipation than Messiah ben David, and relevant to the lost Israel discussed in the gospels.
Ecoregion_PA0812.png
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Last edited by yakovzutolmai on Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
yakovzutolmai
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Re: Simon Magus = Marcion: Who has suggested this?

Post by yakovzutolmai »

neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:01 am
yakovzutolmai wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:12 pmHowever, the evidence would be an inscription I think was mentioned, plus some comparison of personages between different Pauline epistles considering theories on the different phases of composition.
Any chance you or someone can provide details, please?

What is the inscription? What are the names being compared -- and in what sources?
Apologies for the source, but it should have the relevant details for further investigation:

https://apologeticsandevidence.blogspot ... 0to%20find.
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