Simon Magus = Marcion: Who has suggested this?

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Giuseppe
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Re: Simon Magus = Marcion: Who has suggested this?

Post by Giuseppe »

Thinking about it again, it seems that a possible utility behind the assumed identity Simon Magus = Marcion is that the Samaritanism is seen as the invented 'missing link' between 'pure' Christianity and anti-demiurgism. It also talks about the anti-demiurgist co-optation of Samaritan anti-Judean polemic along the common trope: Jesus is not davidic, docet Stuart.

Once introduced the connection Samaritanism/anti-demiurgism, the anti-Samaritan Pilate becomes the anti-anti-demiurgist: Pilate wanted to kill the Samaritans (in the smell of anti-demiurgism), while he wanted to save the 'king of the Jews'.
schillingklaus
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Re: Simon Magus = Marcion: Who has suggested this?

Post by schillingklaus »

The king-of-the-Jews is only an interpolation, as the original had Pilate condemn Jesus without any trial and reason given whatsoever.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Simon Magus = Marcion: Who has suggested this?

Post by MrMacSon »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 5:28 am
... it seems that a possible utility behind the assumed identity Simon Magus = Marcion is that the Samaritanism is seen as the invented 'missing link' between 'pure' Christianity and anti-demiurgism

  • Simon the Samarian need not have been an "invented 'missing' link"

    You note
    Giuseppe wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 5:28 am
    anti-demiurgist co-optation of Samaritan anti-Judean polemic along the common trope: Jesus is not Davidic, docet Stuart


    ie. the narrative writers only need to have co-opted tropes or lore about Simon or other Samarian tropes



Dunno about this, though
Giuseppe wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 5:28 am Once introduced the connection Samaritanism/anti-demiurgism, the anti-Samaritan Pilate becomes the anti-anti-demiurgist: Pilate wanted to kill the Samaritans (in the smell of anti-demiurgism), while he wanted to save the 'king of the Jews'
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John T
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Re: Simon Magus = Marcion: Who has suggested this?

Post by John T »

It's too bad that Neil banished Secret Alias from this forum. No doubt he would have a wealth of data for Neil to follow-up on.

Do you see the price of censorship now? :facepalm:
dbz
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Re: Simon Magus = Marcion: Who has suggested this?

Post by dbz »

John T wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 4:41 am Do you see the price of censorship now? :facepalm:
Yes, a complete and utter void of silence by the Jaunty "John T"!
dbz wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:59 am
John T wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:35 am Already have. Been there and done that. Using the method applied by Carrier, the Bayesian Theorem probability...
So what is the valid historical evidence you adduced and/or that was applied?

Heilig, Christoph (27 March 2019). "What Bayesian Reasoning Can and Can't Do for Biblical Research". Zürich New Testament Blog.
If you want to know what Bayes’s theorem is and how it might affect the way we construct arguments, I would strongly encourage you to simply watch this 10-minute-video. If you have never heard of Bayes, trust me, it is an excellent investment of your time!
dbz wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:32 am
John T wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:07 am I have already dealt with Carrier's subjective misapplication of Bayes's theorem on this forum years ago. You can try to get me to go on your fool's errand but as I said before, been there done that. :tombstone:
John T wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:35 am Using the method applied by Carrier, the Bayesian Theorem probability of Satan is 123.4%.
If you applied Bayesian probability to the (a)Historicity of Satan. Then you should be able to provide a URL link to the list of the valid historical evidence you adduced and/or that was applied. Or just copy it here.
Giuseppe
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Re: Simon Magus = Marcion: Who has suggested this?

Post by Giuseppe »

schillingklaus wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:15 pm The king-of-the-Jews is only an interpolation, as the original had Pilate condemn Jesus without any trial and reason given whatsoever.
Are you sure? According to Jean Magne, 'king of Jews' figures in the question addressed by Pilate to Jesus in the oldest gospel (with Jesus answering without ambiguity: "I am") .

This is the Judaizing signature, for Magne, proving that the oldest gospel was designed, in its same DNA, to prove that Jesus is the Jewish Christ.
schillingklaus
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Re: Simon Magus = Marcion: Who has suggested this?

Post by schillingklaus »

Bayesian stuff can't do zilch for history, sacral or secular does not matter.

From J Magne LA CRUCIFIXION:

IV - Devant Pilate

Le texte du k&eacut;rygme a ét&eacut; conserv&eacut; par Mt/Mc:

> ...et Pilate, l'ayant fait flageller, le livra pour qu'il fût crucifi&eacut;.

tandis que Lc et Jn font livrer J&eacut;sus auz Juifs.

Une première addition à cette simple mention des faits a &eacut;t&eacut; le motif de la condamnation:

> Pilate l'interrogea <<Tu es le roi des Juifs?>> Il lui r&eacut;pondit: <<Tu le dis.>> (Et Pilate l'ayant fait flageller...)
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John T
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Re: Simon Magus = Marcion: Who has suggested this?

Post by John T »

dbz wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 5:41 am
John T wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 4:41 am Do you see the price of censorship now? :facepalm:
Yes, a complete and utter void of silence by the Jaunty "John T"!
dbz wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:59 am
John T wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:35 am Already have. Been there and done that. Using the method applied by Carrier, the Bayesian Theorem probability...
So what is the valid historical evidence you adduced and/or that was applied?

Heilig, Christoph (27 March 2019). "What Bayesian Reasoning Can and Can't Do for Biblical Research". Zürich New Testament Blog.
If you want to know what Bayes’s theorem is and how it might affect the way we construct arguments, I would strongly encourage you to simply watch this 10-minute-video. If you have never heard of Bayes, trust me, it is an excellent investment of your time!
dbz wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:32 am
John T wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:07 am I have already dealt with Carrier's subjective misapplication of Bayes's theorem on this forum years ago. You can try to get me to go on your fool's errand but as I said before, been there done that. :tombstone:
John T wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:35 am Using the method applied by Carrier, the Bayesian Theorem probability of Satan is 123.4%.
If you applied Bayesian probability to the (a)Historicity of Satan. Then you should be able to provide a URL link to the list of the valid historical evidence you adduced and/or that was applied. Or just copy it here.
Not sure why this is still going on. All dbz has to do is start a new o.p. on Bayes's theorem and we can address it there.
Is this what they call trolling?

If so, perhaps Neil can post his troll cartoon again.

Just saying.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Simon Magus = Marcion: Who has suggested this?

Post by Leucius Charinus »

neilgodfrey wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 7:08 pm Can anyone direct me to works that have raised the possibility that Simon Magus was a cipher for, or in some way confused with, Marcion?
Has anyone written "On the Historicity of Simon Magus"?

Was Simon was a purely literary creation?

Or did Simon Magus "appear in the flesh" as an historical figure?
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