The Origins of Judaism, Yonatan Adler

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andrewcriddle
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Re: The Origins of Judaism, Yonatan Adler

Post by andrewcriddle »

neilgodfrey wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:33 pm

I invite you to read the open access article I linked to and referred to explicitly as a contribution to the discussion of the split between the Judeans and Samaritans. Bourgel is aware of the evidence that has been advanced in favour of the traditional viewpoints, including the Sirach 50:25-26, and discusses it in some depth, in the 22 page article. On page 4:
Many have assumed that the “foolish people ( גוי נבל )”, against who Ben Sira voiced his hatred, are to be identified with the Samaritans. 23 This stance derives from the above-mentioned statement of Josephus that Shechem was the city of the Samaritans at the time of Alexander the Great (Ant 11:340) and from an analogy with Gen 34:7 where Shechem, Dinah’s rapist, is reported to have committed a “ נבלה (an outrageous thing)” against Israel. Although this interpretation is not entirely without credibility, one should bear in mind with Peter Van der Horst and Reinhard Pummer that not every mention of Shechem in ancient literature is necessarily related to the Samaritans. In fact, it could also be that Sir 50:25–26 refers to the “non-Samaritan inhabitants of Shechem,” 24 for instance the “Sidonians in Shechem (τῶν ἐν Σικίμοις Σιδωνίων)” mentioned by Josephus in several passages (Ant 11:340–347; 12:257–264). 25 In this respect, the existence of inscriptions from Mt. Gerizim bearing Greek and Arabic names may be evidence that other population groups lived in the area. 26 Likewise, not every use of the word נבל has necessarily to do with the Shechemites; it suffices to quote in this regard Sir 49:5 where the Babylonians are called a "foolish foreign nation (גוי נבל נכרי) ."27 Furthermore, Pummer has rightly stressed that the city at the top of Mt. Gerizim, rather than Schechem, was the metropolis of the Samaritans in the Hellenistic period. 28 Therefore, caution should be applied in too readily considering Sir 50:25–26 a polemic against the Samaritans.


23 See among others (Purvis 1965; Skehan and DiLella 1987, p. 558; Kartveit 2009a, pp. 140-48; Marttila 2012, pp. 206-15).
24 (Van der Horst 2003, p. 32; Pummer 2009, p. 12; 2016, pp. 47-50).
25 (Pummer 2016, p. 86). On the "Sidonians in Shechem," see below.
26 (Dusek 2012, p. 104).
27 See (Bourgel 2017, p. 386).
28 (Pummer 2009, p. 12).
I had previously quickly read the Bourgel paper. Looking at it again the references to Josephus (Ant 11:340–347; 12:257–264) are IMO misleading. They are part of Josephus' attempt to 'other' the Samaritans and do not IMO amount to genuine evidence for a non-Yahwist (Sidonian) community at Shechem.
So when Alexander had thus settled matters at Jerusalem, he led his army into the neighboring cities; and when all the inhabitants to whom he came received him with great kindness, the Samaritans, who had then Shechem for their metropolis, (a city situate at Mount Gerizzim, and inhabited by apostates of the Jewish nation,) seeing that Alexander had so greatly honored the Jews, determined to profess themselves Jews; for such is the disposition of the Samaritans, as we have already elsewhere declared, that when the Jews are in adversity, they deny that they are of kin to them, and then they confess the truth; but when they perceive that some good fortune hath befallen them, they immediately pretend to have communion with them, saying that they belong to them, and derive their genealogy from the posterity of Joseph, Ephraim, and Manasseh. Accordingly, they made their address to the king with splendor, and showed great alacrity in meeting him at a little distance from Jerusalem. And when Alexander had commended them, the Shechemites approached to him, taking with them the troops that Sanballat had sent him, and they desired that he would come to their city, and do honor to their temple also; to whom he promised, that when he returned he would come to them. And when they petitioned that he would remit the tribute of the seventh year to them, because they did but sow thereon, he asked who they were that made such a petition; and when they said that they were Hebrews, but had the name of Sidonians, living at Shechem, he asked them again whether they were Jews; and when they said they were not Jews, "It was to the Jews," said he, "that I granted that privilege; however, when I return, and am thoroughly informed by you of this matter, I will do what I shall think proper." And in this manner he took leave of the Shechenlites; but ordered that the troops of Sanballat should follow him into Egypt, because there he designed to give them lands, which he did a little after in Thebais, when he ordered them to guard that country.
When the Samaritans saw the Jews under these sufferings, they no longer confessed that they were of their kindred, nor that the temple on Mount Gerizzim belonged to Almighty God. This was according to their nature, as we have already shown. And they now said that they were a colony of Medes and Persians; and indeed they were a colony of theirs. So they sent ambassadors to Antiochus, and an epistle, whose contents are these: "To king Antiochus the god, Epiphanes, a memorial from the Sidonians, who live at Shechem. Our forefathers, upon certain frequent plagues, and as following a certain ancient superstition, had a custom of observing that day which by the Jews is called the Sabbath. 5 And when they had erected a temple at the mountain called Gerrizzim, though without a name, they offered upon it the proper sacrifices. Now, upon the just treatment of these wicked Jews, those that manage their affairs, supposing that we were of kin to them, and practiced as they do, make us liable to the same accusations, although we be originally Sidonians, as is evident from the public records. We therefore beseech thee, our benefactor and Savior, to give order to Apollonius, the governor of this part of the country, and to Nicanor, the procurator of thy affairs, to give us no disturbance, nor to lay to our charge what the Jews are accused for, since we are aliens from their nation, and from their customs; but let our temple, which at present hath no name at all be named the Temple of Jupiter Hellenius. If this were once done, we should be no longer disturbed, but should be more intent on our own occupation with quietness, and so bring in a greater revenue to thee." When the Samaritans had petitioned for this, the king sent them back the following answer, in an epistle: "King Antiochus to Nicanor. The Sidonians, who live at Shechem, have sent me the memorial enclosed. When therefore we were advising with our friends about it, the messengers sent by them represented to us that they are no way concerned with accusations which belong to the Jews, but choose to live after the customs of the Greeks. Accordingly, we declare them free from such accusations, and order that, agreeable to their petition, their temple be named the Temple of Jupiter Hellenius." He also sent the like epistle to Apollonius, the governor of that part of the country, in the forty-sixth year, and the eighteenth day of the month Hecatorabeom
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Russell Gmirkin
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Re: The Origins of Judaism, Yonatan Adler

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andrewcriddle wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 6:39 am I had previously quickly read the Bourgel paper. Looking at it again the references to Josephus (Ant 11:340–347; 12:257–264) are IMO misleading. They are part of Josephus' attempt to 'other' the Samaritans and do not IMO amount to genuine evidence for a non-Yahwist (Sidonian) community at Shechem.
So when Alexander had thus settled matters at Jerusalem, he led his army into the neighboring cities; and when all the inhabitants to whom he came received him with great kindness, the Samaritans, who had then Shechem for their metropolis, (a city situate at Mount Gerizzim, and inhabited by apostates of the Jewish nation,) seeing that Alexander had so greatly honored the Jews, determined to profess themselves Jews; for such is the disposition of the Samaritans, as we have already elsewhere declared, that when the Jews are in adversity, they deny that they are of kin to them, and then they confess the truth; but when they perceive that some good fortune hath befallen them, they immediately pretend to have communion with them, saying that they belong to them, and derive their genealogy from the posterity of Joseph, Ephraim, and Manasseh. Accordingly, they made their address to the king with splendor, and showed great alacrity in meeting him at a little distance from Jerusalem. And when Alexander had commended them, the Shechemites approached to him, taking with them the troops that Sanballat had sent him, and they desired that he would come to their city, and do honor to their temple also; to whom he promised, that when he returned he would come to them. And when they petitioned that he would remit the tribute of the seventh year to them, because they did but sow thereon, he asked who they were that made such a petition; and when they said that they were Hebrews, but had the name of Sidonians, living at Shechem, he asked them again whether they were Jews; and when they said they were not Jews, "It was to the Jews," said he, "that I granted that privilege; however, when I return, and am thoroughly informed by you of this matter, I will do what I shall think proper." And in this manner he took leave of the Shechenlites; but ordered that the troops of Sanballat should follow him into Egypt, because there he designed to give them lands, which he did a little after in Thebais, when he ordered them to guard that country.
When the Samaritans saw the Jews under these sufferings, they no longer confessed that they were of their kindred, nor that the temple on Mount Gerizzim belonged to Almighty God. This was according to their nature, as we have already shown. And they now said that they were a colony of Medes and Persians; and indeed they were a colony of theirs. So they sent ambassadors to Antiochus, and an epistle, whose contents are these: "To king Antiochus the god, Epiphanes, a memorial from the Sidonians, who live at Shechem. Our forefathers, upon certain frequent plagues, and as following a certain ancient superstition, had a custom of observing that day which by the Jews is called the Sabbath. 5 And when they had erected a temple at the mountain called Gerrizzim, though without a name, they offered upon it the proper sacrifices. Now, upon the just treatment of these wicked Jews, those that manage their affairs, supposing that we were of kin to them, and practiced as they do, make us liable to the same accusations, although we be originally Sidonians, as is evident from the public records. We therefore beseech thee, our benefactor and Savior, to give order to Apollonius, the governor of this part of the country, and to Nicanor, the procurator of thy affairs, to give us no disturbance, nor to lay to our charge what the Jews are accused for, since we are aliens from their nation, and from their customs; but let our temple, which at present hath no name at all be named the Temple of Jupiter Hellenius. If this were once done, we should be no longer disturbed, but should be more intent on our own occupation with quietness, and so bring in a greater revenue to thee." When the Samaritans had petitioned for this, the king sent them back the following answer, in an epistle: "King Antiochus to Nicanor. The Sidonians, who live at Shechem, have sent me the memorial enclosed. When therefore we were advising with our friends about it, the messengers sent by them represented to us that they are no way concerned with accusations which belong to the Jews, but choose to live after the customs of the Greeks. Accordingly, we declare them free from such accusations, and order that, agreeable to their petition, their temple be named the Temple of Jupiter Hellenius." He also sent the like epistle to Apollonius, the governor of that part of the country, in the forty-sixth year, and the eighteenth day of the month Hecatorabeom
Andrew Criddle
I don't think one can assume the Sidonians of Shechem and/or the Babylonians of Samaria (whom Josephus inaccurately characterizes as having origins in Media/Persia) were non-Yahwistic. Even 2 Kings 17:24-41, which claims that the Samaritans after ca. 725 BCE were composed wholly of Babylonians, acknowledged four different times that they worshipped Yahweh along with their Babylonian gods. (Josephus and rabbinic literature called the Samaritans Cuthites based on 2 Kings 17.)

I am not sure why the Samaritans were called Sidonians of Shechem in Josephus (in the same passage where their Mesopotamian origins were acknowledged). I assume there was a Hellenistic Era Greek military colony planted in Shechem with troops transplanted from Sidon, perhaps due to the Samaritan rebellion against Alexander mentioned by Quintus Curtius, but the circumstances and date for the establishment of this colony are obscure.
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Re: The Origins of Judaism, Yonatan Adler

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Russell Gmirkin wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:26 pm
andrewcriddle wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 6:39 am I had previously quickly read the Bourgel paper. Looking at it again the references to Josephus (Ant 11:340–347; 12:257–264) are IMO misleading. They are part of Josephus' attempt to 'other' the Samaritans and do not IMO amount to genuine evidence for a non-Yahwist (Sidonian) community at Shechem.

<SNIP>

Andrew Criddle
I don't think one can assume the Sidonians of Shechem and/or the Babylonians of Samaria (whom Josephus inaccurately characterizes as having origins in Media/Persia) were non-Yahwistic. Even 2 Kings 17:24-41, which claims that the Samaritans after ca. 725 BCE were composed wholly of Babylonians, acknowledged four different times that they worshipped Yahweh along with their Babylonian gods. (Josephus and rabbinic literature called the Samaritans Cuthites based on 2 Kings 17.)

I am not sure why the Samaritans were called Sidonians of Shechem in Josephus (in the same passage where their Mesopotamian origins were acknowledged). I assume there was a Hellenistic Era Greek military colony planted in Shechem with troops transplanted from Sidon, perhaps due to the Samaritan rebellion against Alexander mentioned by Quintus Curtius, but the circumstances and date for the establishment of this colony are obscure.
I'm suggesting that Josephus wishes to deny the claims of the Samaritans to be truly part of Israel. The quoted passages are propaganda for the position that the Samaritans only pretend to be part of Israel when politically convenient. They are not evidence for a genuine group of (Sidonian) non-Samaritan inhabitants of Shechem. They are a biased portrayal of the Samaritans.

Andrew Criddle

EDITED TO ADD

The context, in this thread, of these passages from Josephus is the suggestion that the hostile reference in Ben Sira to the people who dwell in Shechem need not mean the Samaritans. Treating Josephus as evidence for this is IMO to misunderstand the agenda of Josephus in talking about the Sidonians living at Shechem.
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Re: The Origins of Judaism, Yonatan Adler

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Finally someone with discernment. Andrew, if it wasn't for you I would think the whole human race were shallow, self-centered egoists only bent on affirming pre-existent positions. Your legacy in my life is a continued hope, even faith, that human beings don't deserve to pulverized in a trash compactor.
Last edited by Secret Alias on Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Russell Gmirkin
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Re: The Origins of Judaism, Yonatan Adler

Post by Russell Gmirkin »

andrewcriddle wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:11 am I'm suggesting that Josephus wishes to deny the claims of the Samaritans to be truly part of Israel. The quoted passages are propaganda for the position that the Samaritans only pretend to be part of Israel when politically convenient. They are not evidence for a genuine group of (Sidonian) non-Samaritan inhabitants of Shechem. They are a biased portrayal of the Samaritans.

Andrew Criddle
That's a reasonable position. Many scholars, Ingrid Hjelm among others, have discussions of the biased portrait of the Samaritans in Josephus along similar lines.
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Re: The Origins of Judaism, Yonatan Adler

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Good thing we have a scholarship to point out the fucking obvious. Some more breaking news. The Crips and the Bloods don't have anything good to say about each other either. I don't know what happened. I was just about to take for granted that one side was, according to the other, "a bunch of pussies." But as I said I just came across this scholar who said that they might not have good things to say about each other and what they do say might be self-aggrandizing propaganda. So, at least according to one scholar, caution may be due when using Crip sources on the Bloods and vice versa.

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-libra ... er%20known.
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Re: The Origins of Judaism, Yonatan Adler

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andrewcriddle wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:11 am
EDITED TO ADD

The context, in this thread, of these passages from Josephus is the suggestion that the hostile reference in Ben Sira to the people who dwell in Shechem need not mean the Samaritans. Treating Josephus as evidence for this is IMO to misunderstand the agenda of Josephus in talking about the Sidonians living at Shechem.
Indeed -- you touch on two fundamental points of method, one of which I have been trying to advance here for some time:

1. It goes without saying that biases have to be factored in to any evaluation of sources;
2. Sources from a later time can only be used as direct evidence for what people thought or understood at their own time. They are essentially inadmissable as evidence for earlier times unless it can be demonstrated that they relied about sources going back to those earlier times, or unless independent sources can verify their general reliability. See, for example, the renowned classicist Moses I. Finley for a fuller discussion of this principle: Aspects of Antiquity: Discoveries and Controversies

The most Josephus can do is point to ideas extant in his own time -- and from there the historian is left to explore, if possible, what gave rise to those ideas.
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Re: The Origins of Judaism, Yonatan Adler

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David Hendin,
"Coins Provide Key Evidence in Historic Origins of Judaism"
(Review of Yonatan Adler, The Origins of Judaism).
At: American Numismatic Society,
February 8, 2023

https://www.academia.edu/96542213/David ... ary_8_2023
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Origins of Judaism, Yonatan Adler

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Leucius Charinus wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 1:14 am David Hendin,
"Coins Provide Key Evidence in Historic Origins of Judaism"
(Review of Yonatan Adler, The Origins of Judaism).
At: American Numismatic Society,
February 8, 2023

https://www.academia.edu/96542213/David ... ary_8_2023
Hendlin quotes Lawler from https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... 180981118/
Based on 15 years of studying textual and archaeological evidence, Yonatan Adler of Ariel University, in the West Bank, concludes that ordinary Judeans didn’t consistently celebrate Passover, hold the Sabbath sacred or practice other traditional forms of Jewish ritual until a century or so before the birth of Jesus. If his theory proves correct, then Judaism is, at best, Christianity’s elder sibling and a younger cousin to the religions of ancient Greece and Rome.
and
Barnea calls Adler’s book “important” and agrees that before the Hasmonean era, there seems to be “not a shred of awareness” of “any degree of familiarity” with the Hebrew Bible.
Critical voices are added, but it is pointed out that those critics have "not yet examined Adler's research." --- sounds just like critics here on this forum; don't read it, 'just know' it is wrong because it's not what we've ever considered before and it goes against our gut feelings.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: The Origins of Judaism, Yonatan Adler

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neilgodfrey wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 3:01 pm
Leucius Charinus wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 1:14 am David Hendin,
"Coins Provide Key Evidence in Historic Origins of Judaism"
(Review of Yonatan Adler, The Origins of Judaism).
At: American Numismatic Society,
February 8, 2023

https://www.academia.edu/96542213/David ... ary_8_2023
Hendlin quotes Lawler from https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... 180981118/
Based on 15 years of studying textual and archaeological evidence, Yonatan Adler of Ariel University, in the West Bank, concludes that ordinary Judeans didn’t consistently celebrate Passover, hold the Sabbath sacred or practice other traditional forms of Jewish ritual until a century or so before the birth of Jesus. If his theory proves correct, then Judaism is, at best, Christianity’s elder sibling and a younger cousin to the religions of ancient Greece and Rome.
and
Barnea calls Adler’s book “important” and agrees that before the Hasmonean era, there seems to be “not a shred of awareness” of “any degree of familiarity” with the Hebrew Bible.
Critical voices are added, but it is pointed out that those critics have "not yet examined Adler's research." --- sounds just like critics here on this forum; don't read it, 'just know' it is wrong because it's not what we've ever considered before and it goes against our gut feelings.
The research of Gmirkin and Adler goes against the contemporary paradigms which have been inculcated into its students. Thinking outside the paradigm is tantamount to thinking outside the box. An act often frowned upon.
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