Current State of Samaritan Studies (Hexateuch)

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: Current State of Samaritan Studies (Hexateuch)

Post by Secret Alias »

So the Samaritans identify with Joseph, the unimpeachably virtuous man. The Jews identify with Judah who is confesses in the near contemporary Book of Jubilees as "unrighteous":
doing evil, for he had lain with his daughter-in-law, and he esteemed it hateful in his eyes, and he acknowledged that he had transgressed and gone astray; for he had uncovered the skirt of his son, and he began to lament and to supplicate before the Lord because of his transgression. And we told him in a dream that it was forgiven him because he supplicated earnestly, and lamented, and did not again commit it. 25. And he received forgiveness because he turned from his sin and from his ignorance, for he transgressed greatly before our God; and every one that acteth thus, every one who lieth with his mother-in-law, let them burn him with fire that he may burn therein, for there is uncleanness and pollution upon them; with fire let them bum them. And do thou command the children of Israel that there be no uncleanness amongst them, for every one who lieth with his daughter-in-law or with his mother-in-law hath wrought uncleanness; with fire let them bum the man who hath lain with her, and likewise the woman, and He will turn away wrath and punishment from Israel.
The Samaritans say the same thing about Judah ... and you think the Samaritan interpretation is secondary to your invented bullshit modern re-interpretation of the material. How much older than the Book of Jubilees do you think your modern bullshit re-interpretation of the material is?
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Current State of Samaritan Studies (Hexateuch)

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Secret Alias wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:25 pmThe Jews identify with Judah who is confesses in the near contemporary Book of Jubilees as "unrighteous":

. . . .

The Samaritans say the same thing about Judah ... and you think the Samaritan interpretation is secondary to your invented bullshit modern re-interpretation of the material. How much older than the Book of Jubilees do you think your modern bullshit re-interpretation of the material is?
Are you really incapable of explaining the evidence I have put forward? Do you continue to ignore it and resort -- once again -- to filthy personal abuse?

Near-contemporary is not contemporary, by the way. I am still waiting for you to reply to my attempts to discuss historical evidence and methods of historical researchers with you. If I push you to address that comment will you dig in and return more insults?

Is that all you have got? An ability to copy and paste pages and pages of stuff you only half-read and are evidently incapable of synthesizing and lots of insults? -- and a mind incapable of thinking a new thought but that is compelled to repeat and repeat and respond to contradiction with personal abuse and bullying.
Last edited by neilgodfrey on Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Current State of Samaritan Studies (Hexateuch)

Post by neilgodfrey »

Secret Alias wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:25 pm your modern bullshit re-interpretation of the material
Why is my interpretation "bullshit" while the longer interpretation set out here is worthy of "respect"? Why the different responses? I merely added - in brief - further support for the one you said you "respect".

Interesting.
Secret Alias
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Re: Current State of Samaritan Studies (Hexateuch)

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It's bullshit because I have traveled the world, read actually living texts from antiquity and the whore is not a favored occupation for anyone's mother. It's "bullshit" because it's the kind of thing academics make up and publish in order to "break new ground" and "be interesting and provocative" but no one I REPEAT NO ONE calls their mother "a great whore" on the equivalent - ancient or otherwise - of a Mother's Day card. A Jewish author would not have invented the idea that HIS PEOPLE were descendants of an illicit union and would not have praised Joseph as virtuous - the head of the neighboring northern 'Samaritan' people but depicted his founding father as a moral reprobate and his founding mother as whore-like. It's bullshit. Even if you had a whore for a founding mother or a mother who walked around or sat around "tarted up" all over town you'd make up something else, some other story of your origins.

The reason this hasn't come up before is because scholars "take for granted" that the Pentateuch is a Jewish text. It's like the way they "take for granted" that the Pentateuch was written before the Hellenistic period or that Jesus was a historical person. You have made it your life mission to challenge "traditional scholarship" to reach outside these "taken for granted positions" not because the argument for the Pentateuch being written in Alexandria or Jesus being a myth is a stronger argument. You just "like" those position more. They "tickle" your fancy. Fine. But I would argue the reason no one or few people have taken the Samaritan position seriously is that they used to number about 100 people, didn't have the advantage of recent centuries of European persecution against them (Muslim yes) and yes two millennia of Christian theologians trying to be the "true Jewish tradition" (Samaritans are always bad in the writings of the Church Fathers).

The Samaritan position makes more sense than the Jewish one especially when it comes to arguing that the virtuous portrait of Joseph being a reflection of the Pentateuch being a northern (Samaritan) text. Judah is portrayed as a moral reprobate. Perhaps a repentant one. But surely Joseph is clearly stated to be Jacob/Israel's beloved son. This isn't worth arguing any more.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Current State of Samaritan Studies (Hexateuch)

Post by neilgodfrey »

Finally catching up with this thread.....
Secret Alias wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:31 am It's bullshit because ......
And why is Russell Gmirkin's explanation not "bullshit" but worthy of "respect"? Why is it only mine you call out as "bullshit"?

Please explain the difference.

Why do you delve into personal motives with my explanation but do not do so with Gmirkin's -- even offering Gmirkin free game tickets?

Again, please explain the difference.
Secret Alias
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Re: Current State of Samaritan Studies (Hexateuch)

Post by Secret Alias »

To be honest I don't remember what Gmirkin's point was in this thread. He doesn't know a lot about the Samaritans. I don't think (or a I don't believe) he made a lot of assertions regarding the Samaritans. I think if he was honest he would have said that they don't matter too much and his ignoring them was justified on that account. But no one is ever as explicit or honest like that.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Current State of Samaritan Studies (Hexateuch)

Post by neilgodfrey »

Secret Alias wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 6:48 am To be honest I don't remember what Gmirkin's point was in this thread. He doesn't know a lot about the Samaritans. I don't think (or a I don't believe) he made a lot of assertions regarding the Samaritans. I think if he was honest he would have said that they don't matter too much and his ignoring them was justified on that account. But no one is ever as explicit or honest like that.
Re the Tamar episode, it's here: viewtopic.php?p=146305#p146305

I do get the impression that you don't really recall what I have written, either -- though you do know that my conclusion is contrary to yours. Each one of your replies denounces my conclusion (and often enough me along with it) and you then repeat at length your own view without once addressing any of the points I (or Gmirkin) have raised.

I am reminded that you have said you do not trust academics or their books and I do wonder if it's because you fear they argue for conclusions and points of view that you disagree with. Is that why you don't want to read Gmirkin's book? Because it is only the conclusion you are interested in and not his case for it? Do you fear that arguments by others threaten to undermine "obvious, good down to earth common sense"?

You keep saying how scandalous it would be to call one's mother a whore but your repetition of that obvious fact completely ignores what I have been saying in my replies. I don't know if you are even reading of the evidence for Tamar being honoured by Jews and Jewish-Christians as a righteous woman or the plain fact that Tamar was simply NOT a prostitute any more than a one-time pretence (that creates a funny story) is long-time reality that is nowhere found in the story.
Secret Alias
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Re: Current State of Samaritan Studies (Hexateuch)

Post by Secret Alias »

So this is how we proceed? Really?
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Current State of Samaritan Studies (Hexateuch)

Post by neilgodfrey »

Secret Alias wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 1:49 pm So this is how we proceed? Really?
Well, my idea of a productive discussion is where each party listens to and responds to the points of the other's argument. If all we do is listen to the conclusions and ignore the arguments that led to those conclusions then we may as well hold our hands over our ears and shout "I can't hear you" and then when they've shut up we shout our own case.

I don't know how anyone can learn anything new if one does not listen to and engage with the actual arguments and points made by the other party.

This is why a common but good step in any discussion is when one side asks the other if they have understood them correctly by repeating in their own words what they understand of the other side, and giving the other side a chance to correct any misunderstandings.

I feel some disappointment that Gmirkin posted at length addressing your questions and problems with his theory but that you simply ignored every one of his points or failed to respond to a single one except to say you "disagree" without explaining why. And now you are repeating the same things about his arguments that you made before he posted anything as if you have learned nothing from his comments -- not even getting a clearer idea of what his argument actually is re the Samaritans and other things.

Gmirkin has taken each of your points and addressed them in detail (as have I) but you have taken none of his points to address any of them in turn. You simply sit back as if he has said nothing and say you disagree with his conclusion for the same reasons as at the beginning.

That's not a discussion.
Secret Alias
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Re: Current State of Samaritan Studies (Hexateuch)

Post by Secret Alias »

What's "productive" about Gmirkin's attitude toward the Samaritans? He thinks they are unimportant or ignorable. He has not considered the Samaritans as valuable in reconstructing the origin of the Pentateuch the way Konrad Schmid has. As I said earlier, maybe the Samaritans and their traditions are not worthy of serious consideration. That's entirely possible. But "Gmirkin's interest in the Jews" is non-existent. He mentions them as an afterthought. He mentions them to cover his ass and say "I mentioned them." He did. I admit it. But that's about all he did. He mentioned them.

Die Samaritaner und die Bibel : historische und literarische Wechselwirkungen zwischen biblischen und samaritanischen Traditionen. Edited by: Schmid, Konrad; Frey, Jörg; Schattner-Rieser, Ursula (2011). Berlin / New York: De Gruyter.

What's the equivalent "productivity" from Gmirkin?
Under the historical model I propose, the delegation of Jewish (and Samaritan) scholars dispatched to Alexandria at the invitation of Ptolemy II Philadelphus and under the authority of the Jewish senate conducted extensive legal research at the great Library in the course of crafting the Pentateuch’s laws.
I did not find occasion to separately discuss Samarians and Samaritans in connection with the Books of Moses, which they held in common with the Jews, except to note that the few ancient Babylonian and Assyrian laws preserved in the Mosaic legal corpus were the intellectual legacy of Mesopotamian residents who colonized Neo-Assyrian Samerina in the 700s bce. I hope to discuss the special literary contribution of the Samaritans to the Pentateuch, especially early Genesis, in a later book.
I won't hold my breath for this "later book."
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