The Elephantine Papyri
Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:06 pm
While I knew about the existence of the Elephantine Papyri (and Temple), I didn't read them or give them much thought until the recent discussion here about Gmirkin, whose work I'm very slowly becoming more acquainted with, since it's hard for me to access beyond what I can see on Google books and excerpts in the reviews of others and in the debates here. I'm also a bit hampered by not being very familiar with Plato and other Greek writings used by Gmirkin.
So at this point all I have are questions, since I'm in no position to be debate anything. And while bearing in mind the idea that there are no references to the written Torah in the Papyri, when I read the relevant papyri (pp. 437-441 here: https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/3155527.pdf), I don't understand why the references to a priesthood, meal offerings, incense, burnt offerings, wearing sackcloth and fasting don't count when these things are mentioned in the written Torah. Do the writers have to say, "So we wore sackcloth, like Jacob in Gen. 37:34"?
In any event, a pre-Hellenistic "Yahwism" supposedly without a written Torah looks a lot like what I see in the written Torah, so what does it matter if it wasn't written down until Hellenistic times?
And what does it matter if there's polytheism and multiple altars mentioned in the Elephantine Papyri when these things are also in the written Torah/OT (e.g., Jer. 11:13: "Your gods are indeed as numerous as your cities, O Judah; the altars of shame you have set up—the altars to burn incense to Baal—are as many as the streets of Jerusalem’)?
In other words, there appears to have been a kind of Judaism in Persian times (both in and outside of Judea) and when it was written down in the Torah-as-we-know-it seems immaterial.
For example, I gather from the above link that the Elephantine Papryri mention people who are also mentioned in Nehemiah, so if Nehemiah has accurate information about the time it is set in, what does it matter if it was written in Greek times? And the same goes for the Torah.
I look at it this way. The Mishnah wasn't written down until c. 200 CE, but it contains information about kinds of Judaism that existed before then, in some instances arguably two centuries or more earlier (Pharisees, Sadducees, minim). Similarly, even if the Torah/OT was written after Alexander, it appears to contain a lot of information about a kind of Judaism that goes back to earlier times.
The big question is whether or not Gmirkin makes a convincing case that the written Torah/OT is also largely modeled on Greek writings and thought, and that is something I can't say one way or the other right now.
But if he's right, again, what does it matter? The Judaism in the Elephantine Papyri reflects Persian times (people who existed then, Aramaic language, etc.), and the Judaism in the Torah/OT would then reflect Greek times (along with earlier times). Judaism always gets impacted by contact with other cultures, and if contact with Greeks resulted in the written Torah/OT, it would still be a product of Jews doing Jewish things, and some of these things (like sacrifices and priesthood, which is what the written Torah is largely all about) appear to go back to Persian times.
I guess the most it would affect me is that I would have to think that Moses was invented in Greek times instead of the earlier time I imagine he was invented.
So at this point all I have are questions, since I'm in no position to be debate anything. And while bearing in mind the idea that there are no references to the written Torah in the Papyri, when I read the relevant papyri (pp. 437-441 here: https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/3155527.pdf), I don't understand why the references to a priesthood, meal offerings, incense, burnt offerings, wearing sackcloth and fasting don't count when these things are mentioned in the written Torah. Do the writers have to say, "So we wore sackcloth, like Jacob in Gen. 37:34"?
In any event, a pre-Hellenistic "Yahwism" supposedly without a written Torah looks a lot like what I see in the written Torah, so what does it matter if it wasn't written down until Hellenistic times?
And what does it matter if there's polytheism and multiple altars mentioned in the Elephantine Papyri when these things are also in the written Torah/OT (e.g., Jer. 11:13: "Your gods are indeed as numerous as your cities, O Judah; the altars of shame you have set up—the altars to burn incense to Baal—are as many as the streets of Jerusalem’)?
In other words, there appears to have been a kind of Judaism in Persian times (both in and outside of Judea) and when it was written down in the Torah-as-we-know-it seems immaterial.
For example, I gather from the above link that the Elephantine Papryri mention people who are also mentioned in Nehemiah, so if Nehemiah has accurate information about the time it is set in, what does it matter if it was written in Greek times? And the same goes for the Torah.
I look at it this way. The Mishnah wasn't written down until c. 200 CE, but it contains information about kinds of Judaism that existed before then, in some instances arguably two centuries or more earlier (Pharisees, Sadducees, minim). Similarly, even if the Torah/OT was written after Alexander, it appears to contain a lot of information about a kind of Judaism that goes back to earlier times.
The big question is whether or not Gmirkin makes a convincing case that the written Torah/OT is also largely modeled on Greek writings and thought, and that is something I can't say one way or the other right now.
But if he's right, again, what does it matter? The Judaism in the Elephantine Papyri reflects Persian times (people who existed then, Aramaic language, etc.), and the Judaism in the Torah/OT would then reflect Greek times (along with earlier times). Judaism always gets impacted by contact with other cultures, and if contact with Greeks resulted in the written Torah/OT, it would still be a product of Jews doing Jewish things, and some of these things (like sacrifices and priesthood, which is what the written Torah is largely all about) appear to go back to Persian times.
I guess the most it would affect me is that I would have to think that Moses was invented in Greek times instead of the earlier time I imagine he was invented.