Can someone enlighten me about SA's argument, please?

[neilgodfrey]

Secret, the answer to my question is, of course, obvious. We know the kingdom of Israel was destroyed in the late 720s BCE.

The point of my question, though, is not to play with dates, but to think through the question that necessarily follows from this fact. What evidence do we have for what the northern hill region around Samaria was called, if anything, and by whom, after the cessation of the "kingdom of Israel"?

I don't think we know and we can't just assume an answer without some sort of evidence. I am not sure we can assume that the people left in the region after the Assyrian conquest ever thought of themselves as "Israelites". Did they even assume such an identity at any time prior? They may have known they were ruled by a dynasty related to the name "Israel" but I suspect that people in or near various villages and towns thought of themselves as, if anything, "from such and such a town". We find the reference to Samarians, I believe.

Further, there can be little doubt that the religion of the "kingdom of Israel" was "pagan", certainly not "Jewish" in any sense of the word if we are guided by the archaeological evidence. They probably worshiped Yahweh but only as a part of a larger pantheon.

The question for the historian then becomes "whence the name of Israel", what did it mean or imply, and to whom was it identified and when -- post 722 BCE?

That's not a simple question to answer, I don't think. There are many variables.

[Secret Alias]

This is a silly argument. Israel is first and foremost a name of a place. There are very few places that move. Armenia is one. But Israel is the name of the region around Shechem. End of story. What it became for Christians later and then Jews is another matter. The only issue that remains to be sorted are the coins during the Bar Kochba Revolt "for the Redemption of Israel."

[neilgodfrey]

This is a silly argument. Israel is first and foremost a name of a place. There are very few places that move. Armenia is one. But Israel is the name of the region around Shechem. End of story. What it became for Christians later and then Jews is another matter. The only issue that remains to be sorted are the coins during the Bar Kochba Revolt "for the Redemption of Israel."

Yes, it is the name of the place WE give it. But that's not the question. What was the name given to various areas in the time of which we are speaking? And what are the limits of those areas? Boundaries and names are entirely social constructs and they change all the time.


You can't say "silly argument" and "end of story" based on modern notions and labels assuming they applied in the Persian era, for example. You simply can't. You need evidence. (People, scholars, who read multiple languages and write/wrote lots of academic papers have made the very point I am setting out here. It is not my idea -- I learned it from "my teachers" who mastered the ancient languages etc ---- something that otherwise impresses you greatly. I am not giving you books to read. I am discussing their ideas.)

[neilgodfrey]

This is a silly argument. Israel is first and foremost a name of a place. There are very few places that move. Armenia is one. But Israel is the name of the region around Shechem. End of story. What it became for Christians later and then Jews is another matter. The only issue that remains to be sorted are the coins during the Bar Kochba Revolt "for the Redemption of Israel."

You keep telling me this is a discussion forum so I would really appreciate it if you also treated it like a discussion forum and refrained from insulting terminology like "silly argument" that appear to me to be more designed to shut down discussion and impose your own ideas by default instead of through discussion.

[MrMacSon]

This is a silly argument. Israel is first and foremost a name of a place. There are very few places that move. Armenia is one. But Israel is the name of the region around Shechem. End of story. What it became for Christians later and then Jews is another matter. The only issue that remains to be sorted are the coins during the Bar Kochba Revolt "for the Redemption of Israel."

You were asked, " When did the Kingdom of Israel...come to an end? "

Referring to the spatial, geographic or territorial placement of Israel is a category error. But you will know that

[neilgodfrey]

SA, you love to teach me with maps. Allow me to return the favour......

Screen Shot 2023-01-07 at 10.06.03 am.png (762.08 KiB) Viewed 496 times

If you study these two maps closely you will notice some differences. In the second map Israel has disappeared. What happened to it?

Here is another map that is set let's say around half-way between the above two.

Screen Shot 2023-01-07 at 10.15.59 am.png (1.59 MiB) Viewed 496 times

Israel is still not there. What on earth happened to it?

It was there in the time of Merneptah but he said he wiped it out, confessed to genocide. It pops up again 350 years later with the Assyrians, but the Assyrians once again destroyed it. Removed its government, its administration, its entity as a political unit. Archaeological evidence suggests many refugees moved south to the kingdom around Jerusalem. Israel was no more.

When the Persians ruled we look in vain for any revival of "Israel". And it's still not there in the time of Christ.

[Russell Gmirkin]

It is highly relevant to note that Israel only appears twice as the name of the northern kingdom in extra-biblical sources, namely (1) in the listing of Shalmaneser III's enemies at the battle of Qarqar in 853 BCE, in which "Ahab of Israel" and his chariot forces figure as the third entry, and (2) in the Mesha Stele, which refers to "Omri, king of Israel." The name is thus attested only for the times of Omri and his son Ahab. Otherwise the northern kingdom is referred to as either Bit-Humri [The House of Omri] or as Samaria. Needless to say, there are no inscriptional references remotely relating to the (fictional) 10 or 12 tribes of Israel. Israel recurs as a synonym for the Samaritans in a late Hellenistic Era inscription in a reference to the "Israelites of Delos" (one of the Aegean islands) who sent an offering to Mount Gerizim.

[Secret Alias]

I don't understand what other candidates are there for "Israel" as an ancient territory? Are there any alternatives to the land around Shechem. Love to hear them.

[MrMacSon]

It is highly relevant to note that Israel only appears twice as the name of the northern kingdom in extra-biblical sources, namely (1) in the listing of Shalmaneser III's enemies at the battle of Qarqar in 853 BCE, in which "Ahab of Israel" and his chariot forces figure as the third entry, and (2) in the Mesha Stele, which refers to "Omri, king of Israel." The name is thus attested only for the times of Omri and his son Ahab. ... Israel recurs as a synonym for the Samaritans in a late Hellenistic Era inscription in a reference to the "Israelites of Delos" (one of the Aegean islands) who sent an offering to Mount Gerizim.

Wow.

Delos Synagogue Inscription #1:

“The Israelites on Delos who make first fruit offerings to the temple on Mt. Gerizim, crown with a gold crown Sarapion, son of Jason, of Knossos for his benefactions toward them.”

Provenance: Both Delos inscriptions #1 and #2 were found together on the seashore 100 meters from the Synagogue on Delos Island, Greece 1979 AD

https://www.bible.ca/synagogues/Delos-G ... -250bc.htm

Delos Synagogue Inscription #2:

“The Israelites on Delos who make first-fruit offerings to the temple on holy Mt. Gerizim honour Menippos, son of Artemidorus, of Herakleion, both himself and his descendants, for constructing and dedicating, his own funds, for the synagogue of God, the ... and crown him with a gold crown...”

B. Discussion about [the] inscription:
2. “Bruneau dates the inscription to 150-50 BCE on palaeographic grounds. For the significance of oi, iv MIXT for dating, cf. #Ach66. If the dating is correct, it shows striking continuity with #Ach66 in the way the Samaritans of Delos designated themselves, and in the form of wreath used on the stones (unless the wreaths survive from earlier use) ...” (IJO: Inscriptiones Judaicae Orientis, David Noy, vol 1, Arc67, p.233, 2004 AD)

https://www.bible.ca/synagogues/Delos-G ... -250bc.htm

eta

C. Inscription footnotes:
1. John Hycranus destroyed the Samaritan temple on Mt Gerizim in 128 BC: Josephus Antiquities 13:254-256
2. His hometown was Herakleion, the port city of Knossos on Island of Crete.

eta #2

In 1979, Philippe Fraisse of the Ecole française d'Athènes found two Samaritan inscriptions on Delos not far from GD80. Both inscriptions are in Greek and are dedicated by the "Israelites who offer to Holy Argarizein," clearly indicating the presence of a Jewish and/or Samaritan community on the island. The question is {a} where on the island that community was based and {b} whether or not it had a synagogue or some sort of community or association hall at all.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/vi ... orld-delos

[Russell Gmirkin]

I don't understand what other candidates are there for "Israel" as an ancient territory? Are there any alternatives to the land around Shechem. Love to hear them.

Hi Secret. You caught me on a very brief break from writing.

Why would one assume that there existed an ancient historical territory called "Israel" at any time other than ca. 800s BCE when the name appears in inscriptions of Shalmaneser III and Mesha? Or that the biblical 12 tribes of Israel ever historically existed outside the (extremely late and demonstrably fictional) biblical text? Literature is not history. Literature is not to be confused with fact.

Hope that helps.