Can someone enlighten me about SA's argument, please?

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Can someone enlighten me about SA's argument, please?

Post by neilgodfrey »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 12:05 pm There are some points which can't be made any simpler than just saying "two things cannot be same thing."
I'm not asking you for the simplest statement of facts we all know. I am asking for the conclusions you draw from those facts about what it is you are keeping secret from us about the authorship of the Pentateuch and origins of Judaism.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Can someone enlighten me about SA's argument, please?

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SA, it looks to me that you have played your childish game for so long now that you fear losing face if you actually present your argument, that is the conclusions you draw from the facts you keep repeating.
Secret Alias
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Re: Can someone enlighten me about SA's argument, please?

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There is history: "Israel" = the land around Shechem.
There is literature: where "Israel" is the land around Shechem.

How do the Jews/Judah fit into this understanding?
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Can someone enlighten me about SA's argument, please?

Post by neilgodfrey »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 12:49 pm There is history: "Israel" = the land around Shechem.
There is literature: where "Israel" is the land around Shechem.

How do the Jews/Judah fit into this understanding?
You tell me. What is your argument?
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Can someone enlighten me about SA's argument, please?

Post by neilgodfrey »

I am beginning to think you don't have an argument. Just a gut feeling about the Jews not having any part of the Pentateuch's authorship. No argument. Just a gut feeling. Right? Because you are a self-hating Jew? Right?
Secret Alias
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Re: Can someone enlighten me about SA's argument, please?

Post by Secret Alias »

How is it a "gut feeling" about anything? There is evidence that "Israel" was what the lands around Shechem were called in the First Commonwealth. The lands around Jerusalem were not "Israel." They were "Judah." We think of "Israel" as meaning this or that hocus pocus from the Pentateuch. Before the Pentateuch it was the name of the land of the Samaritan people and it was never - until much more recently - the name of the land of Jewish people. It would be interesting to see Josephus's use of the name "Israel" and whether he applies it to Judea.
Secret Alias
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Re: Can someone enlighten me about SA's argument, please?

Post by Secret Alias »

As I expected. In Antiquities "Israel" is never used after the time of Alexander. The last reference to "Israelites" is in the story of Esther:
The same supplications did the multitude put up, and entreated that God would provide for their deliverance, and free the Israelites that were in all the earth from this calamity which was now coming upon them, for they had it before their eyes, and expected its coming.
The last reference to "Israel" is specifically during the Babylonian Captivity:
And when these Jews had understood what piety the king had towards God, and what kindness he had for Esdras, they were all greatly pleased; nay, many of them took their effects with them, and came to Babylon, as very desirous of going down to Jerusalem; but then the entire body of the people of Israel remained in that country.
The Samaritans can't write 3 sentences without referring to themselves as "Israel."
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Can someone enlighten me about SA's argument, please?

Post by neilgodfrey »

So you believe the Jews had nothing to do with the authorship of the Pentateuch. Right? Just say Yes or No.

You believe the Samaritans wrote the Pentateuch and insulted the Jews in doing so by having them the descendants of a prostitute? Right? Just say Yes or No.
Secret Alias
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Re: Can someone enlighten me about SA's argument, please?

Post by Secret Alias »

I think that in the Persian period the Samaritans had the authority to develop a story of their origins in which they saw themselves or were seen by the "big brother" of the Jews/Judaeans. I think that "Sadducees" existed in Judea and well as Samaria and that they traditionally recognized Shechem as the home of the religion. The Jerusalem temple was born out of nationalist interest rather than fidelity to traditional religion. The Pentateuch did not prescribe the construction of permanent religious structures and can be seen as actually encouraging the opposite (flimsy impermanent structures). Sukkot reinforces this understanding. Don't know how the construction of permanent buildings got its start but it was understood by many (Dositheans, early Christians) to go against the principles of Moses.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Can someone enlighten me about SA's argument, please?

Post by neilgodfrey »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:46 pm I think that in the Persian period the Samaritans had the authority to develop a story of their origins in which they saw themselves or were seen by the "big brother" of the Jews/Judaeans.
What does that mean? "in which they saw themselves or --- did they see themselves as the big brother of the Jews?

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:46 pm I think that "Sadducees" existed in Judea and well as Samaria and that they traditionally recognized Shechem as the home of the religion.
Are you saying that the Sadducees endorsed the view that the Samaritans rather than the Jews were responsible for the Pentateuch?
Secret Alias wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:46 pm The Pentateuch did not prescribe the construction of permanent religious structures and can be seen as actually encouraging the opposite (flimsy impermanent structures).
I don't know if I understand where you are coming from here. Are you saying the Samaritans endorsed the construction of the Tabernacle as a temporary abode for the deity -- and were trying to forbid the construction of a temple by this command for a temporary tent?
Secret Alias wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:46 pm Sukkot reinforces this understanding. Don't know how the construction of permanent buildings got its start but it was understood by many (Dositheans, early Christians) to go against the principles of Moses.
So the Samaritans did not build a temple? Is that what you are saying? Because they wrote in their Pentateuch that they should not have a temple? Is that what you mean?

And is all of the above based on what you conclude from Israel not being the same as Judah?
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