Can someone enlighten me about SA's argument, please?

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neilgodfrey
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Can someone enlighten me about SA's argument, please?

Post by neilgodfrey »

I am sure some others here who have had more association with SA than I have must know what his argument is re the authorship of the Pentateuch/origin of Judaism is. I have attempted repeatedly in another thread to ask him to explain what it is that I don't get concerning his repeated assertion that Israel and Judah are separate kingdoms but he is playing games with me and refusing to tell me what conclusions I am supposed to draw from that obvious fact.

I have tried to be patient with SA and make it clear where and why I disagree with some of his other points, and tried to engage him in serious discussion, and I am genuinely interested in understanding what it is that he appears to think is so obvious but that others like me don't get.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks
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Secret Alias
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Re: Can someone enlighten me about SA's argument, please?

Post by Secret Alias »

He can't be this dense. He's a smart guy. Maybe it's the Purloin Letter syndrome. But here goes.

"the kingdom of Israel" = northern Israel
"the kingdom of Judah" = southern Israel

"Israel" becomes Samaria
"Judah" becomes Judea

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Secret Alias
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Re: Can someone enlighten me about SA's argument, please?

Post by Secret Alias »

"McDonald's Barbeque" became "McDonald's"

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"Kentucky Fried Chicken" became "KFC"

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A historian 1000 years from now would be incorrect to say "KFC is McDonalds" in the same way as a modern historian is wrong to say that historically "Judah is Israel."

The major difference with "Judah" and "Israel" is that the descendants of Judah = the Jews took over/appropriated the name "Israel." So for the analogy to hold KFC would have to claim they were "McDonalds." But in either case KFC isn't McDonald's and Judah isn't Israel.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Can someone enlighten me about SA's argument, please?

Post by neilgodfrey »

Will someone other than SA tell me what SA thinks he is trying to tell me?

Yes, SA, I know all of that. I assume most of know all that. But I am tired of your games. What conclusions am I meant to draw from all of that re the authorship of the Pentateuch/origins of Judaism. I am also tired of your insults and refusal to actually discuss something with respect to the other party. You have complained about the standards on this forum -- you are more to blame than most, I fear.

Am I correct in thinking that you are afraid to make explicit the conclusions you want me to draw because you fear they will be found wanting? Or do you just enjoy playing "If I repeat obvious facts without explaining any of the conclusions I myself draw from them it'll make Neil look dumb and make me look smarter" game?
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Secret Alias
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Re: Can someone enlighten me about SA's argument, please?

Post by Secret Alias »

I am just saying McDonalds isn't KFC.
Nike isn't Adidas.
Canada isn't America.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Can someone enlighten me about SA's argument, please?

Post by neilgodfrey »

I am obviously too dumb to understand SA's point about what any of the above has to to with authorship of Pentateuch/origins of Judaism.

Please someone who has more patience as a teacher explain to me what conclusions I am meant to be drawing, and why.

SA, I would politely ask you not to respond any further here unless you can finally come to the heart of the issue and explain the connection any of the above has with what it is that presumably most scholars, most commentators, and most of us here fail to understand about the authorship of the Pentateuch/origins of Judaism.

Think of this thread as being about you, not for you -- at least not for you to repeat your assertions ad nauseum.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Can someone enlighten me about SA's argument, please?

Post by Secret Alias »

It's an "assertion" to argue that "Israel" was the name of the northern kingdom and "Judah" the southern kingdom. We're stretching the meaning of assertion to "things I don't like" or "facts I want to avoid." The real question is what is causing this denseness. Oh I remember. The Samaritans are worthless. That's an important thing to defend. Right.
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billd89
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Re: WAT

Post by billd89 »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 9:42 pm I am just saying ...Canada isn't America.
Has Canuckistan really abandoned that hill???
Times have changed.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Can someone enlighten me about SA's argument, please?

Post by neilgodfrey »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:09 am It's an "assertion" to argue that "Israel" was the name of the northern kingdom and "Judah" the southern kingdom. We're stretching the meaning of assertion to "things I don't like" or "facts I want to avoid." The real question is what is causing this denseness. Oh I remember. The Samaritans are worthless. That's an important thing to defend. Right.
This is why I asked you to stay out of this thread. Re-asserting obvious facts known to all is not your argument. (I did NOT say "baseless assertion"; I have been complaining that you are only asserting obvious facts as if that is enough for you to state what your case: you refuse to tell us what conclusions you draw from those facts. I suspect by now you know your argument is weak.) You continue to pretend not to understand the question --- what those asserted facts have to do with your theory of the question of the authorship of the Pentateuch/origins of Judaism.

Your snide remarks about Samaritans only demonstrates you have not even bothered to read what either Gmirkin or I have written about the Samaritans in this forum -- just like for a long time you did not bother to read the clear evidence that there were no Persian loan-words in the Pentateuch (except for one via the Greek).

You are using this forum, SA, for games and not for discussion. You are only interested in having your private little joke of making me look stupid in your own eyes.

I would like someone -- SA, keep out of this because you are not interested in answering the question --- to tell me what SA's argument is re the authorship of the Pentateuch/origin of Judaism with respect to the specific identity/identities of Israel-Judah.

Or maybe no-one else knows it either -- maybe it's SA's private little idea that only he in the whole world actually knows.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Can someone enlighten me about SA's argument, please?

Post by Secret Alias »

There are some points which can't be made any simpler than just saying "two things cannot be the same thing." If the region around Shechem is "Israel" and the region around Jerusalem is "Judah" the narrative of "how Israel came to be" written in an age where Shechem was a functioning cultic center and which reflects the importance of Shechem to the origins of Israel is unlikely to be about Judah/Judea/the Jews specifically.

I think you're brain won't allow you to consider the evidence because of your attachment to the third century BCE creation of the Torah. If the Pentateuch was created in Persian period where the Samaritans were favored by their Persian masters over their Judean rivals then it follows that the concept of "Israel" in a narrative centrally focused on Shechem the traditional cultic center of Israel could only be about "Israel" rather than its southern neighbor "Judah" or "Judea" or "the Jews."
Last edited by Secret Alias on Thu Jan 05, 2023 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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