Re: Can someone enlighten me about SA's argument, please?
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2023 6:12 pm
I am the one who brought this up originally. posting.php?mode=quote&f=6&p=148368 Because I am objective and fair-minded.
Investigating the roots of western civilization (ye olde BC&H forum of IIDB lives on...)
https://earlywritings.com/forum/
The end of Genesis and the Tetrateuch and Pentateuch and the Hexateuch reinforce the same reality. "Israel" was buried in "Israel" = Shechem.All these are the twelve tribes of Israel, and this is what their father said to them when he blessed them, blessing each one of them with a suitable blessing.
[49:29] Then he charged them, saying to them, "I am about to be gathered to my people. Bury me with my ancestors - in the cave in the field of Ephron the Hittite,
[49:30] in the cave in the field at Machpelah, near Mamre, in the land of Canaan, in the field that Abraham bought from Ephron the Hittite as a burial site.
[49:31] There Abraham and his wife Sarah were buried; there Isaac and his wife Rebekah were buried; and there I buried Leah -NOTE: the fact that Jews have come up with some nonsense story about the cave being in Hebron aside the original understanding is still preserved in a source from the Persian period:
And Joseph’s bones, which the Israelites had brought up from Egypt, were buried at Shechem in the tract of land that Jacob bought for a hundred pieces of silver[a] from the sons of Hamor, the father of Shechem. This became the inheritance of Joseph’s descendants.
There is nothing more to discuss. Joshua is a better source than late Jewish sources. Here is an overview of the sources in favor of the burial in Samaria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph%27s_Tomb
[49:32] the field and the cave that is in it were purchased from the Hittites."
[49:33] When Jacob ended his charge to his sons, he drew up his feet into the bed, breathed his last, and was gathered to his people.
Chapter 50
[50:1] Then Joseph threw himself on his father's face and wept over him and kissed him.
[50:2] Joseph commanded the physicians in his service to embalm his father. So the physicians embalmed Israel;
[50:3] they spent forty days in doing this, for that is the time required for embalming. And the Egyptians wept for him seventy days.
[50:4] When the days of weeping for him were past, Joseph addressed the household of Pharaoh, "If now I have found favor with you, please speak to Pharaoh as follows:
[50:5] My father made me swear an oath; he said, 'I am about to die. In the tomb that I hewed out for myself in the land of Canaan, there you shall bury me.' Now therefore let me go up, so that I may bury my father; then I will return."
[50:6] Pharaoh answered, "Go up, and bury your father, as he made you swear to do."
[50:7] So Joseph went up to bury his father. With him went up all the servants of Pharaoh, the elders of his household, and all the elders of the land of Egypt,
[50:8] as well as all the household of Joseph, his brothers, and his father's household. Only their children, their flocks, and their herds were left in the land of Goshen.
[50:9] Both chariots and charioteers went up with him. It was a very great company.
[50:10] When they came to the threshing floor of Atad, which is beyond the Jordan, they held there a very great and sorrowful lamentation; and he observed a time of mourning for his father seven days.
[50:11] When the Canaanite inhabitants of the land saw the mourning on the threshing floor of Atad, they said, "This is a grievous mourning on the part of the Egyptians." Therefore the place was named Abel- mizraim; it is beyond the Jordan.
[50:12] Thus his sons did for him as he had instructed them.
[50:13] They carried him to the land of Canaan and buried him in the cave of the field at Machpelah, the field near Mamre, which Abraham bought as a burial site from Ephron the Hittite.
[50:14] After he had buried his father, Joseph returned to Egypt with his brothers and all who had gone up with him to bury his father.
[50:15] Realizing that their father was dead, Joseph's brothers said, "What if Joseph still bears a grudge against us and pays us back in full for all the wrong that we did to him?"
[50:16] So they approached Joseph, saying, "Your father gave this instruction before he died,
[50:17] 'Say to Joseph: I beg you, forgive the crime of your brothers and the wrong they did in harming you.' Now therefore please forgive the crime of the servants of the God of your father." Joseph wept when they spoke to him.
[50:18] Then his brothers also wept, fell down before him, and said, "We are here as your slaves."
[50:19] But Joseph said to them, "Do not be afraid! Am I in the place of God?
[50:20] Even though you intended to do harm to me, God intended it for good, in order to preserve a numerous people, as he is doing today.
[50:21] So have no fear; I myself will provide for you and your little ones." In this way he reassured them, speaking kindly to them.
[50:22] So Joseph remained in Egypt, he and his father's household; and Joseph lived one hundred ten years.
[50:23] Joseph saw Ephraim's children of the third generation; the children of Machir son of Manasseh were also born on Joseph's knees.
[50:24] Then Joseph said to his brothers, "I am about to die; but God will surely come to you, and bring you up out of this land to the land that he swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob."
[50:25] So Joseph made the Israelites swear, saying, "When God comes to you, you shall carry up my bones from here."
[50:26] And Joseph died, being one hundred ten years old; he was embalmed and placed in a coffin in Egypt.
The end of Genesis and the Tetrateuch and Pentateuch and the Hexateuch reinforce the same reality. "Israel" was buried in "Israel" = Shechem.
To say I am arguing "against reality" IS disparaging. Be honest with yourself. You are so habituated into thinking one way that any new idea that challenges your long-held belief appears to you to be divorced from reality. It takes time to get to understand a new idea and properly analyze the flaws in traditional beliefs. Most people react emotionally with sneers, ridicule and insults.Secret Alias wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 4:34 pm You are well prepared to argue against the straightforwardness of reality. I don't mean this disparagingly.
What does any of this have to do with what I have posted. Nothing -- quite apart from the fact that I do tire of your repeated false accusations that I have ever argued for a "mythical Jesus".Secret Alias wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 4:34 pm In the case of the historicity of Jesus I do think that these "critical re-examinations" are well justified. Was someone a historical person or a fictitious one is different that saying that "Israel" or "Canada" or "Australia" or "the Moon" might be inventions.
Can you keep the emotive language out of it and let's reason dispassionately -- with the objectivity you claim to have.Secret Alias wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 4:34 pmCome on. There is a fucking thing called "Israel" that dates back almost as far as history in the region.
We have history. History is a record of changes. What is your evidence that Judah and Israel continued as named entities without break from the Iron Age?Secret Alias wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 4:34 pmI acknowledge that countries can move. Like Armenia. But surely the association of Israel with the north and Judah with the south is established.
Secret Alias wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 4:34 pm It is also established that the Jews and Christians started to use "Israel" as something divorced from history, place or a specific people.
If people use "Israel" as a theological concept then it does "get away" from the use of the term as a historical reality. Yes, the term "Israel" did have a historical reality as a dynastic kingdom in the Iron Age, but that's not the Israel that the Mishnah is speaking of in reality.Secret Alias wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 4:34 pm In the Mishnah for instance "Israel" and "Israelites" is an idealized notion of Law-observers who are not priests. But that doesn't get away from "Israel" being originally used to denote the northern kingdom, its people and the land around Shechem.
I have set out facts with maps. Do you disagree with that evidence. You used maps to instruct me --- I am showing you other maps that give a more complete picture.
Correct.Secret Alias wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 4:34 pm The Jewish and Christian "idealized" or even divorced from history usage of Israel meaning something it surely didn't for the earliest historical records and the Pentateuch. How does the Pentateuch understand the terminology? There is a conscious effort to make "Israel" the name of the father of the "sons of Israel" meaning descendants of Jacob.
That is also correct. But what we need to be careful about is not mixing up different times and uses as if they all happened at once by the same people.Secret Alias wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 4:34 pm But there is also an association with the northern kingdom, the lands around Shechem:
Why do you even come to this discussion forum. You clearly do not like discussing ideas. You seem only to want to write many posts of your own ideas and get cranky, insulting very often, when people challenge your ideas. You then tell them their ideas are silly and shut down the discussion. And you complain that other people don't want to discuss ---
Yes, indeed! It does. But you have not explained how that scenario in any way undermines anything I have posted until now.Secret Alias wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 4:34 pmThe end of Genesis and the Tetrateuch and Pentateuch and the Hexateuch reinforce the same reality. "Israel" was buried in "Israel" = Shechem.
Not everything is up for discussion when we know that we aren't going to find an older tradition than Joshua. Under a 270 BCE hypothesis Joshua is as old as Pentateuch. That's the problem with revolutionary theses. How do you argue against Joshua's interpretation of Genesis 50? I guess I get frustrated because I strive for honesty. If you think the Hextateuch was written all at once then there can't be differences between the books. Whether or not different people wrote the books they were canonized together (under 270 BCE understanding). How do you argue against Joshua's interpretation of where Joseph was buried? Please tell me. Joshua can't have been written any later than 270 CE.There is nothing more to discuss.