What follows is a quite different objection now, and that leads me to think your arguments are somewhat ad hoc. The above criticism of a classicist whose work had nothing to do with the Pentateuch -- even misreading his point about Carthage and Rome and presumably on that point alone mis-characterizing the entire body of evidence was somewhat speculative -- was presumably prompted by a concern that such a study was indeed very close to the kind of example you asked for in your earlier quote.
andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 5:27 am
If one holds a very late date for the present form of the Pentateuch, then it would be quite plausible to interpret specific passages e.g. the probably late passage about Zelophehad’s Daughters as being influenced by the Laws.
The reverse is also possible and is what has happened in my case, at least: it was the comparative analysis of the Laws with the Pentateuch that opened up the strong likelihood, in my view, that the Pentateuch post-dated the Laws.
It is the inability to accept the possibility that the Pentateuch could be so late -- and the only reason for that inability is the strength of a theory and tradition -- is what has shut off any serious comparison between the Laws and the Pentateuch. Not all -- some have certainly seen the strong echoes of Plato in the Pentateuch and have attempted to explain the evidence they see as arising with the Documentary Hypothesis in mind.
You yourself said you would think this to be a more likely scenario: that the Pentateuch somehow influenced Plato, however indirectly.
Of course, it probably goes without saying that such a model has far more problems with identifying how such an influence could have been channelled that the Hellenistic era thesis for the Pentateuch.
What I see here is the overwhelming power of the Documentary Hypthesis to guide our assumptions and all our interpretation of other evidence.
andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 5:27 amWhat I have much more difficulty with, irrespective of relative dating, is the idea that Plato's Laws are the covert ideology of the elite who invented the Pentateuch. An ideology which had to be obscured in order for the Pentateuch to be acceptable to ordinary Jews. This idea, IMO, is quite different from the ways in which the Laws may well have openly contributed to the Hellenistic political debate.
I think you will need to be clearer about what you mean by "ideology" in this context. What is it you are objecting to, exactly? What is it you imagine is the argument re Plato's influence on the Pentateuch?
andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 5:27 am
(I am deeply uncertain about Plato's
intention in writing the Laws, which was apparently published posthumously. But I accept that Plato's intention is largely irrelevant to how the work was or was not made use of.)
Andrew Criddle
Again, I see a kind of ad hoc approach here -- or attempt to throw up any idea in the hope that some of them stick. Why even introduce the posthumous publication of the Laws when you immediately backtrack and admit it is irrelevant?
You have suggested that Plato's intentions for Laws -- as you perceive them -- are not so practical, but more theoretical or even whimsical. But by bringing up this objection again you are simply ignoring the far-from-speculative evidence set out by Morrow about Plato's intent for and actual influence in the real political world.
The examples from Morrow's work show that Plato's principles and ideas were applied in very real ways in very real circumstances in the ancient world - and the local situations influenced how those ideas were introduced, often with modifications to suit local conditions.
It was not an "ideology" being imposed in the sense that societies had to be totally restructured from anything they previously knew -- as in, say, the ideologies of Stalinism and Maoism being imposed on Russia and China.
What one sees is another instance of Hellenism, a blend of Greek and Asiatic. Plato's Laws spoke of adaptation to local gods, the preservation of local forms of worship. That's what you see in the cults of Yahweh dominating the Pentateuch. Those cults (Samarian and Judean) were the leading ones in Samaria and Jerusalem at the time of Alexander's conquests.
What one sees in the Pentateuch is a dramatic and narrative presentation of a body of law that is so unlike any other presentation of laws in anywhere --- with the only exception being in Plato's Laws. The "unique" presentation of the Pentateuch is explained by scholars as "remarkable" or "astonishing" creativity by its authors.
One could argue that Plato was inspired to describe such a literary work as the Pentateuch in his Laws because he somehow knew about it. But the problems that scenario raises are far more difficult and numerous than the relative dating that is prepared to abandon the Documentary Hypothesis.
(updated)