Plato and the Pentateuch

[ABuddhist]

I see. So it can't be that Jews were telling the truth. Why not? Why can't the Jews be telling the truth? Like when they count 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust and they build Holocaust Memorials and develop PR campaigns can Jews be believed or does the last word go to "independent researchers" who aren't Jewish, because "you know the way the Jews are"? Someone wrote a book on the subject I think, Von den Jüden und iren Lügen.

You directly ignore my words, which do not allege that I believe or that Gmirkin believes that the Jews as a whole were not telling the truth.

A story that was universally known, universally attested to. The point is that it can't be argued that the Letter of Aristeas "misinformed" its readers and was responsible for the "misinformation." The only explanation now was the Jewish community actively promoting misinformation FROM THE BEGINNING. That Jews are "naturally dishonest" is an anti-Semitic trope.

And that the Jews of today are not the Jews from the pentateuch is also an antisemitic trope. Besides, if you were to read Gmirkin, you would larn that he does not claim that all jews misled people about their scriptures' orgins; rather the Jewish laders, motivated by Platonic ideals, misled both their Jewish subjects and non Jews in the hopes of creating a better Jewish society.

[Secret Alias]

But history is filled with reports. Why focus on THIS report which, let's be honest, is not very suspicious. Everyone knows that Hebrew is the language of the Jews, the Pentateuch and the holy writ of the Jews. To accuse Philo or the Jews of dishonesty with respect to the LXX is quite incredible. It's akin to doubting that McDonald's hamburgers contain beef. Why should a conspiracy have arisen around a plain fact that everyone takes for granted? What makes it so believable that the Jews lied other than the fact that people already believe that Jews are prone to lying? It makes no sense. Like giving a smirk when a Chinese person can't drive or a black person is caught stealing.

[ABuddhist]

But history is filled with reports. Why focus on THIS report which, let's be honest, is not very suspicious. Everyone knows that Hebrew is the language of the Jews, the Pentateuch and the holy writ of the Jews. To accuse Philo or the Jews of dishonesty with respect to the LXX is quite incredible. It's akin to doubting that McDonald's hamburgers contain beef. Why should a conspiracy have arisen around a plain fact that everyone takes for granted? What makes it so believable that the Jews lied other than the fact that people already believe that Jews are prone to lying? It makes no sense. Like giving a smirk when a Chinese person can't drive or a black person is caught stealing.

Sometimes, what "everyone knows" is actually wrong. What people think is a plain fact which everyone takes for granted may be false.

You are the only one here insisting that a Pentateuch's being written orginally in Greek is equivalent to accusing all Jews of dishonesty. For my part, I have in this discussion always asserted that Philo was honest but may not have been revealing accurate claims, instead reporting incorrect accouynmt about his scriptures' origins. The same applies to the Jews after and aside from those Jews who supposedly translated the Pentateuch into Greek from Hebrew.

As for why such a conspiracy among the Jewish leaders to conceal from other people (including most other Jews) their scriptures' true orgins, Gmirkin has written extensively about this. Basically, they were inspired by ideas created by Plato (a non-Jew!) about how a well-educated elite needed to take control of a society's cultural memory and norms in order to mold the society into a better society based upon allegedly ancient nyths which really were recent creations.

If you were to read Gmirkin's books, you would have a better idea about the argumnents which he makes and the evcidence which he cites. But you refuse to do so, amnd instead proclaim youyrself to be able to refute what is really a straw man of his ideas.

In all honesty, I am not familiar enough with Gmirkin's claims to know whether he claims that the Pentateuch was written originally in Greek. But I am not claiming to be either able to refute him nor to be any authority about his theory.

Furthermore, your uncritical reliance upon claims by Philo, a person living hundreds of years after the events whicvh he was describing, and upon a festival commemorating an alleged event, and upon a consensus among the people about the alleged event all reveal that you are completely unable to engage in the type of critical evaluation of evidence about alleged historical events which scholars regularly engage in.

I think, therefore, that I will end this discussion with you, although I will still see what you write without needing to do anything (unlike karavan).

[StephenGoranson]

Aristobulus of Alexandria lived before Philo, and Aristobulus considered the Hebrew Torah to be old, older than the 270s, and also older than Plato, surely.

RE Gmirkin wrote, in part (Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible, 2016, endnote 150): "Aristobulus did not consider the possibility that the Pentateuch was both written and translated at Alexandria."
Well, why would anyone think Aristobulus should have considered that "possibility"? As for imagining the Pentateuch was influenced by Plato's Laws, why did someone not "consider" that until, when, 1997?

Here's a question: when did the Library of Alexandria become the admirable collection that eventually earned it fame? (Building and stocking a great library takes considerable time.)

Whether consciously or unconsciously, presenting Jews----or their "Elders"----as uniquely dishonest is, in my view, a grave and dangerous mistake.

ABuddhist is correct about one thing: this forum allows him or her to use that name. In the "say hi" thread AB wrote, March 20, 2023, in part: "....I love studying history and religions' history. Through them I became convinced that Buddhism is the only true religion." By that, elsewhere, AB explained that that "true religion" is a subset of Buddhism. In my non-expert view, AB, in posts, does not represent the best of Buddhism, some aspects of which I admire. That "only true religion" view can be turned to danger. For example, in Myanmar (I do not assume AB is or was there) Buddhists recently killed people, chased people, and burned houses of Rohingya people, because they are Muslim. (Muslim teaching, btw, considers Jews "people of the book.")

[Secret Alias]

What do you bring to the discussion? Do you think Jews were stupid enough to think that Moses handed the Israelites a Greek Pentateuch? How isn't the LXX a translation? How is that even conceivable?

[ABuddhist]

Whether consciously or unconsciously, presenting Jews----or their "Elders"----as uniquely dishonest is, in my view, a grave and dangerous mistake.

ABuddhist is correct about one thing: this forum allows him or her to use that name. In the "say hi" thread AB wrote, March 20, 2023, in part: "....I love studying history and religions' history. Through them I became convinced that Buddhism is the only true religion." By that, elsewhere, AB explained that that "true religion" is a subset of Buddhism. In my non-expert view, AB, in posts, does not represent the best of Buddhism, some aspects of which I admire. That "only true religion" view can be turned to danger. For example, in Myanmar (I do not assume AB is or was there) Buddhists recently killed people, chased people, and burned houses of Rohingya people, because they are Muslim. (Muslim teaching, btw, considers Jews "people of the book.")

1. But if Gmirkin's model were true, the Jewish elders were not uniquely dishonest. Rather, they would have been part of a long tradition of people, from all races, ethnicities, and religious traditions, fabricating scriptures and claiming that they were older and had greater aauthority than they did. Cf., for example, the Book of Mormon, Mahayana Buddhist Sutras, and the pseudo-Pauline letters.

2. I entirely agree that it is wrong to use the "only true religion" claim to justify violence against other people. But it does not make it wrong to belief that one's religion or no religion or all religions are true and to argue accordingly.

3. As further evidence that Buddhism has a longstanding tradition of condemning other Buddhist traditions as false and misguided, I cite the Kathāvatthu from the Abhidhamma Pitaka. Although I have previously cited the Abhidhamma Pitaka as a later forgery claimed to be older than it its, the Kathāvatthu, unique among its texts, makes no claim to antiquity and claims to be based upon the debates by a named Buddhust monk, Moggaliputtatissa, from the 3rd century BCE.

[Secret Alias]

I have among the most creative minds at this forum and I can't see a possible way that Alexandrian Jews had anything other than the understanding that God delivered to Moses a Hebrew "ten utterances," that Moses and God spoke Hebrew to one another and that Moses wrote their Pentateuch in Hebrew. How could the LXX have represented anything other than a translation? Please explain.

[ABuddhist]

What do you bring to the discussion? Do you think Jews were stupid enough to think that Moses handed the Israelites a Greek Pentateuch? How isn't the LXX a translation? How is that even conceivable?

I bring a willingness to consider evidence and criticall assess traditions which you naively accept without question.

I think that the Jews thought and think that the Pentateuch was written in Hebrew. Traditions, however, are not always accurate

How isn't the LXX a translation? How is that even conceivable?

I lack the expertise to say one way or the other, and I am inclined to agree that the Pentaterucvh probably was written in Hebrew. But Gmirkin may disagree and he has better qualifications than I have to answer these questions.

I woulds never trust any comment by you about this matter, though, because of your combined naive acceptance of claims and your unwillingness to consider evidence and your condemnation of citing evidence - unless you were to undergo a radical elevation of your willingness to critically6 assess claims, your willingness to consider evidence, and your willingnewss to tolewrate other people citing evidence.

[Secret Alias]

they would have been part of a long tradition of people ... the Book of Mormon, Mahayana Buddhist Sutras, and the pseudo-Pauline letters.

The Jews would still be the "originators" of this evil methodology and dishonesty in your understanding. They are the oldest example in the list.

[Secret Alias]

I bring a willingness to consider evidence and criticall assess traditions which you naively accept without question.

Except the testimony that Philo gives of Jews and non-Jews of his day gathering together for the last 300 years celebrating the LXX as a translation at the very public island of Pharos.