Plato and the Pentateuch

[Secret Alias]

All of which brings up an interesting question. Does any physical representation of the ten commandments exist written in Greek? I don't know the answer. In ancient synagogues there was a visible representation of the Ten Commandments visible for all to see.



I don't see how this squared with the "claim" that Alexandrian Jews could have held the LXX to be an original exemplar.

[Secret Alias]

Can we all at least be honest and admit that the only reason why this stupid idea that the LXX was an original exemplar rather than a translation crept into the discussion was because it "fits" with the notion that the Pentateuch borrowed from Greek writers? It doesn't make sense that Moses was understood to write in Greek. And then the names of the books themselves. The third book of history in Greek is called Leviticus, because it is about the selection and ministry of the Levites. But in Hebrew the first word is used as the title. How is this reconciled? The Greek clearly seems to be a summary of the contents of the Hebrew original.

[ABuddhist]

Can we all at least be honest and admit that the only reason why this stupid idea that the LXX was an original exemplar rather than a translation crept into the discussion was because it "fits" with the notion that the Pentateuch borrowed from Greek writers? It doesn't make sense that Moses was understood to write in Greek. And then the names of the books themselves. The third book of history in Greek is called Leviticus, because it is about the selection and ministry of the Levites. But in Hebrew the first word is used as the title. How is this reconciled? The Greek clearly seems to be a summary of the contents of the Hebrew original.

Finally, you are making useful and insightful arguments. Congratulations.

[Secret Alias]

I thought Moses speaking Greek was my best argument. The pattern of using first words to identify a text was true also for Greek works especially poetry. https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/ab ... 7080A8447A As such, the LXX is evidently a secondary text. (Cf. the AbT scholia on Iliad 1 1 in Harmut Erbse, Scholia Graeca in Homeri Iliadem 1 (Berlin 1969) 3-4 and Horace, Ars Poetica 140-43, with Aristotle, (PMG 893 Page, with testimonia) is a well-known case of a poem identified by its first words ; for others, cf. Lloyd Daly, " The Entitulature of Pre-Ciceronian Writings, " in Classical Studies in Honor of W. A. Oldfather (Urbana 1943) 20-38.

[neilgodfrey]

In all honesty, I am not familiar enough with Gmirkin's claims to know whether he claims that the Pentateuch was written originally in Greek.

Gmirkin concurs with the long-established evidence that the Pentateuch was originally written in Hebrew and then translated into Greek. (There are usually clear signs that indicate if a work is a translation of another - syntax etc.)

There is also manuscript evidence that demonstrates we no longer have the original Hebrew nor even the first Greek translation. These are not "Gmirkin" ideas but part of the standard understanding among the specialist scholars. Gmirkin addresses some of this evidence in his latest book. (Gmirkin's views on Plato's influence and Hellenistic dating also get a more positive response among the scholars who have read them than they do here among jerks who deliberately refuse to read them and fall back on personal attacks, especially anti-semitism, and childish "whataboutism", refusal to actually read serious responses or else to simply ignore and forget them, to derail this thread from serious discussion.

[ABuddhist]

In all honesty, I am not familiar enough with Gmirkin's claims to know whether he claims that the Pentateuch was written originally in Greek.

Gmirkin concurs with the long-established evidence that the Pentateuch was originally written in Hebrew and then translated into Greek. (There are usually clear signs that indicate if a work is a translation of another - syntax etc.)

There is also manuscript evidence that demonstrates we no longer have the original Hebrew nor even the first Greek translation. These are not "Gmirkin" ideas but part of the standard understanding among the specialist scholars. Gmirkin addresses some of this evidence in his latest book. (Gmirkin's views on Plato's influence and Hellenistic dating also get a more positive response among the scholars who have read them than they do here among jerks who deliberately refuse to read them and fall back on personal attacks, especially anti-semitism, and childish "whataboutism", refusal to actually read serious responses or else to simply ignore and forget them, to derail this thread from serious discussion.

Well, I thank you for your advice. In general, though, I am glad that I had this discussion with Secret Alias, because I at least got him to start citing scholarship aside from Philo and other ancient authorities.

[neilgodfrey]

In all honesty, I am not familiar enough with Gmirkin's claims to know whether he claims that the Pentateuch was written originally in Greek.

Gmirkin concurs with the long-established evidence that the Pentateuch was originally written in Hebrew and then translated into Greek. (There are usually clear signs that indicate if a work is a translation of another - syntax etc.)

There is also manuscript evidence that demonstrates we no longer have the original Hebrew nor even the first Greek translation. These are not "Gmirkin" ideas but part of the standard understanding among the specialist scholars. Gmirkin addresses some of this evidence in his latest book. (Gmirkin's views on Plato's influence and Hellenistic dating also get a more positive response among the scholars who have read them than they do here among jerks who deliberately refuse to read them and fall back on personal attacks, especially anti-semitism, and childish "whataboutism", refusal to actually read serious responses or else to simply ignore and forget them, to derail this thread from serious discussion.

Well, I thank you for your advice. In general, though, I am glad that I had this discussion with Secret Alias, because I at least got him to start citing scholarship aside from Philo and other ancient authorities.

I have admired your patience. A true Buddhist!

[Secret Alias]

Gmirkin concurs with the long-established evidence that the Pentateuch was originally written in Hebrew and then translated into Greek. (There are usually clear signs that indicate if a work is a translation of another - syntax etc.)

So why is Philo's report about a festival of translation misinformed? The LXX is a translation of a Hebrew original. So the Hebrew text was written let's say 270 BCE and the LXX a year, a decade, a century later. What evidence is there for the date of the LXX? The Hebrew text is just "older" than the LXX. How much older only depends on the persuasiveness of the dependence of the Hebrew Pentateuch on Plato. Wow. What a powerful argument. History by creative writing paper. The only argument that stands out is Moses equalling 345. The rest is just subjective waffle.

[Secret Alias]

How could the same authors have written Moses was horned and Moses was glorified?

[Secret Alias]

How could the Hebrew have fire law in Persian and the Greek something completely different?