Plato and the Pentateuch

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by Secret Alias »

What's the difference in saying that Americans "can't be expected to remember" who wrote their Declaration of Independence in 1776 and the circumstances surrounding its ratification and ancient Jews doing the same thing in Alexandria c. 270 BCE. Slightly different circumstances in terms of translating something and writing something. But both were memorialized. 2026 will be the 250th anniversary of the United States. Are we really having an argument that in fifty years history could have it that instead of it being an original document written by the founding fathers it was translated from a French original into English by said fathers? Really? Really, really, really? That is what is being proposed here.
Secret Alias
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by Secret Alias »

Remember it's not a "hypothetical" that Philo and the Alexandrian community memorialized the LXX as a translation. It's not like we're hypothesizing that they remembered that it was translated from Hebrew into Greek. Philo tells us this. He tells us that the community memorialized the translation of the LXX. It's not like, as you would have it, that he picked up something like the Letter of Aristeas and "held" that the LXX was a translation based on a pseudepigraphon. It was an "official fact" outside of literary documents. It is very rare that a holiday or event is memorialized strictly based on a literary account. It can be argued that the holidays (or "holy days") of the Pentateuch represent one such "literary-based memorialization." But that isn't clear either. Passover must have been pre-existent etc. etc. The clear implications of Philo's account of the festival in the Life of Moses is that (a) there was a translation by the Seventy and (b) it was memorialized as a holiday in Alexandria. This memorialization was separate from any literary document like the Letter of Aristeas. The translation happened. There were witnesses to the translation and later their witness was memorialized.
Secret Alias
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by Secret Alias »

Philo was involved in cross-cultural communication, and his works reflect this dual context. It should be remembered that Judaism as a whole is — in different degrees and in different ways — to be understood within the sphere of Hellenism. These sympathizers, together with the Alexandrian Jews, celebrated the Greek translation of the laws of Moses. Thus, there is reason for believing that Philo largely had in mind the kind of people present at these Septuagint festivals when he wrote, and that setting for his writings comprises both the Jewish community and its borderline to the surrounding world, such as non-Jewish sympathizers with Judaism and took part in at least one Jewish festival, and by implication probably in several of the activities in the Jewish community. These sympathizers, together with the Alexandrian Jews, celebrated the Greek translation of the laws of Moses. Thus, there is reason for believing that Philo had in mind the kind of people present at these Septuagint festivals when he wrote, and that one important setting for his writings is the borderline between the Jews and the surrounding world, especially non-Jewish sympathizers with Judaism.
and
Some clues to Philo's hermeneutical presuppositions may be found in Mos. 2.1-65. Here Philo makes clear that in the Diaspora setting of the Alexandrian lews the translation of the laws of Moses into Greek was a major revelatory event. The giving of the laws in the Hebrew language at Mount Sinai was for the barbarian half of the human race, while the translation of these laws into Greek on the island Pharos at Alexandria made them known to the Greek half of the world (Mos. 2.26-27). This second event took place under Ptolemy Philadelphus, the third in succession to Alexander, the conqueror of Egypt (Mos. 2.25-40). In Mos. 2.25-40 Philo gives a summary of the traditional account of the origin of the Greek translation (Swete 1902,12; cf. Meecham 1932,121-24): the reason for the translation was not ignorance of Hebrew among Alexandrian Jews but the need for the laws of the Jewish nation, which at the same time were the one God's cosmic and universal laws, to be made known to all nations. In his works, then, Philo continues this proclamatio Graeca with the same aim in mind. The glimpse given by Philo of the Septuagint festival on the island of Pharos shows that there was a large number of non-Jews in Alexandria who were sympathizers with Judaism and took part in at least one Jewish festival, and by implication probably in several of the activities in the Jewish community. These sympathizers, together with the Alexandrian Jews, celebrated the Greek translation of the laws of Moses. Thus, there is reason for believing that Philo had in mind the kind of people present at these Septuagint festivals when he wrote, and that one important setting for his writings is the borderline between the Jews and the surrounding world, especially non-Jewish sympathizers with Judaism.
ABuddhist
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by ABuddhist »

Secret Alias wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:54 am What's the difference in saying that Americans "can't be expected to remember" who wrote their Declaration of Independence in 1776 and the circumstances surrounding its ratification and ancient Jews doing the same thing in Alexandria c. 270 BCE. Slightly different circumstances in terms of translating something and writing something. But both were memorialized. 2026 will be the 250th anniversary of the United States. Are we really having an argument that in fifty years history could have it that instead of it being an original document written by the founding fathers it was translated from a French original into English by said fathers? Really? Really, really, really? That is what is being proposed here.
The difference is that the signing of the Declaration of Independance and its composition have been testified about by multiple sources in multiple languages from multiple perspectives (that is, including anti-American) with clear chains of provenence all going back to when the Declaration of Independance was written. Even so, various legends about the Delaration of Independence have arisen, including those surrounding John Hancock.

In contrast, we have only limited accounts about the origin of the pentauteuch, all of which deerive, as far as I am aware, from propaganda or legends created by the Jews, always (unless I am mistaken) in later times. Relying upon such sources is not a good way to learn about the Pentateuch's orgins.

I mean, if we were to rely opon American legends and propaganda about George Washington from later times, we would regard him as an extremely virtuous man and skilled general, even though the reality is that he was a brutal and mediocre general whom the Haudenosaunee nicknamed "Conotocaurius" (Town-Destroyer).

Furthermore, Philo, whose words you rely upomn for authority, was active more than 300 years after the crucial 270 BCE time.
Secret Alias
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by Secret Alias »

The difference is that the signing of the Declaration of Independance and its composition have been testified about by multiple sources in multiple languages from multiple perspectives (that is, including anti-American) with clear chains of provenence all going back to when the Declaration of Independance was written.
And what makes you think that there weren't a similar number of testimonials in antiquity in the Jewish community of Alexandria?
Secret Alias
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by Secret Alias »

How is Philo's testimony in Life of Moses is "legendary"? He's saying there is a festival going on (i.e. like "July 4th") which memorializes the translation? Don't you read? If so do you comprehend what you are reading? I don't think so.
ABuddhist
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by ABuddhist »

Secret Alias wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:06 am Remember it's not a "hypothetical" that Philo and the Alexandrian community memorialized the LXX as a translation. It's not like we're hypothesizing that they remembered that it was translated from Hebrew into Greek. Philo tells us this. He tells us that the community memorialized the translation of the LXX. It's not like, as you would have it, that he picked up something like the Letter of Aristeas and "held" that the LXX was a translation based on a pseudepigraphon. It was an "official fact" outside of literary documents. It is very rare that a holiday or event is memorialized strictly based on a literary account.
Communities can believe false things. Scholars from communities can believe the same false things.

You concede that it is possible to have a holiday or event commemorated based upon a literary account.

You claim to have the truth, but you only quote from Philo!

And why should we trust what Philo claims when he was not understanding Hebrew, had grown up in a community claiming that the Pentateuch had certain properties (which he accepted), and was active over 300 years after the 270 BCE date?

And saying thet he was related to the people actiove in the Pentateuch's writing/translation is not sufficient.
ABuddhist
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by ABuddhist »

Secret Alias wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:32 am
The difference is that the signing of the Declaration of Independance and its composition have been testified about by multiple sources in multiple languages from multiple perspectives (that is, including anti-American) with clear chains of provenence all going back to when the Declaration of Independance was written.
And what makes you think that there weren't a similar number of testimonials in antiquity in the Jewish community of Alexandria?
There may have been. But we have no record about them - unless I am mistaken. Nor accounts from Greeks and Egyptians about that same event. Without such testimonies, we have no reliable preoof about the pentateuch's origins.
Secret Alias
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by Secret Alias »

"On the eighth day of Tevet the Law was written in Greek in the days of King Tolmai [Ptolemy], and darkness came upon the world for three days." Megillat Taanit (1st - 2nd century CE)
ABuddhist
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by ABuddhist »

Secret Alias wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:34 am How is Philo's testimony in Life of Moses is "legendary"? He's saying there is a festival going on (i.e. like "July 4th") which memorializes the translation? Don't you read? If so do you comprehend what you are reading? I don't think so.
1. Philo was reporting a tradition that the pentateuch's translation into Greek was associated with a certain day. But that translation, if it occurred, has become surrounded by legends, such as that each translator produced the same translation although working in isolation. But because Philo reported something does not make it true. Philo, after all, believed that the Pentateuch was over 1,00 years old and had been dictated by YHWH to Moses.

2. Why do you accuse me of such things? I read, I comprewhend what I read, and I critically assess what I read.

3. Do you consider evidence contrary to your beliefs? Do you critically evaluate and question what your sources claim? JHudging by this discussion about Philo, you do not, and if Philo were to say that 2 + 2 = 5, you would believe it.
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