Plato and the Pentateuch

[Secret Alias]

There were only so many priests in Egypt. Philo was likely related to many of the translators not just one or two. It's simple math.

[ABuddhist]

But that is not true. The Hebrew and the Greek pentateuchs differ in their textual contents in many ways.

And how do you explain that with Gmirkin's theory? Please indulge me with some mental gymnastics.

If translators of the Hebrew Bible first five books into Greek had difficulty understanding the Hebrew, then it is unlikely that they were the same Gmirkin-hypothetically-bilingual people who wrote the Hebrew.

Stephen is painfully misinformed in his understanding of the issues involved, besides neglecting to cite either sources or examples. The definitive treatment of this subject is Emanuel Tov, "DID THE SEPTUAGINT TRANSLATORS ALWAYS UNDERSTAND THEIR HEBREW TEXT?" which is Chapter 14 (pages 203-218) of the 1999 (revised) edition of his book The Greek and Hebrew Bible. Of all the numerous examples Tov exhaustively discusses, ONLY TWO come from the Pentateuch. One of them was Gen. 47:31, where "the translator read the consonants wrongly." The other was Deut. 28:25 ("The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of _horror_ to all the kingdoms on earth") where the end of the verse in Greek says "you will be _scattered_ [a diaspora] among all the kingdoms of the earth." Did a translator misunderstand this one isolated Hebrew word in the entire Pentateuch? I personally think it is more likely it is another well-understood phenomenon, where one individual read an entire verse in Hebrew and the scribe/secretary translated it all into Greek. It has been observed that translations tend to be more accurate at the start of each verse and slip a little later on, due to the difficulty of the scribe keeping the whole passage in their brain.

So "Septuagint Translator" in this context refers to the whole Greek Bible, not the Pentateuch, as Stephen carelessly assumes. And the Pentateuch is remarkably accurate. And just to state the obvious, it is pretty hilarious to imagine, as Stephen contends, that the task of translating the Pentateuch from Hebrew to Greek would be assigned to scholars or scribes who DIDN'T KNOW HEBREW. Stephen, translators are by definition bilingual.

Please notice that my sentence quoted above--
"If translators of the Hebrew Bible first five books into Greek had difficulty understanding the Hebrew, then it is unlikely that they were the same Gmirkin-hypothetically-bilingual people who wrote the Hebrew."
--does not include the word "Septuagint."

Yet Russell E. Gmirkin posted (above) in reply to that:
"....So "Septuagint Translator" in this context refers to the whole Greek Bible, not the Pentateuch, as Stephen carelessly assumes....."

Wow.

Stephen,
You have been asked more than once to provide a source for your claim that the Pentateuch translators had difficulty understanding the Hebrew. You purportedly have a PhD; you purportedly have worked as a university librarian; yet it doesn’t show, since yet you seem incapable of reading relevant academic sources or citing authorities. I can only assume by your reluctance in this instance that you have no academic source to cite, or that whatever your source is, it does not support your interpretation.

If it’s not something you picked up off the internet, I think it safe to provisionally assume/conclude it traces back to Tov’s seminal discussion and involves a misunderstanding of what was referred to as the Septuagint, probably on your part. I will gladly revise my conclusion if you would care to provide your source and if it provides examples of systematic difficulties by the Greek translators with the Hebrew. That would be news to me, and I always welcome valid new information and insights, even from trolls.

You should be aware of the apparently universal practice of translation, in which one person (oftentimes the author) reads the original while the scribe or secretary writes down the translation. That’s how it happened in the ancient world, according to contemporary research (see van der Lowe 2008). The Aramaisms and Egyptianisms in the LXX (Pentateuch) point to the amanuensis or scribe as likely of Egyptian Jewish heritage (Joosten 2010). So any conclusions regarding the language skills of the translator would apply primarily to the amanuensis, not the author / reader. My latest book on Plato’s Timaeus puts forward evidence that the use of Timaeus in both the Greek and underlying Hebrew of Genesis 1-3 suggests that the authors personally undertook to translate these critical chapters that had significant philosophical content. Elsewhere in the Pentateuch they likely used secretaries as was more usual. See my discussion in Gmirkin 2022: 88-89.

[ABuddhist]

There were only so many priests in Egypt. Philo was likely related to many of the translators not just one or two. It's simple math.

All of that is no argument.

[Secret Alias]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo

"And I have kings for my grandfathers and for my ancestors, the greater part of whom have been called high priests, looking upon their royal power as inferior to their office as priests; and thinking that the high priesthood is as much superior to the power of a king, as God is superior to man; for that the one is occupied in rendering service to God, and the other has only the care of governing them."

Philo lived in the same locales as the people that translated the LXX.
Philo was related to the translators of the LXX.
Philo hung out in circles of people related to the translators of the LXX.

When he says the LXX was a translation it is way more authoritative than Gmirkin. End of story.

[ABuddhist]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo

"And I have kings for my grandfathers and for my ancestors, the greater part of whom have been called high priests, looking upon their royal power as inferior to their office as priests; and thinking that the high priesthood is as much superior to the power of a king, as God is superior to man; for that the one is occupied in rendering service to God, and the other has only the care of governing them."

Philo lived in the same locales as the people that translated the LXX.
Philo was related to the translators of the LXX.
Philo hung out in circles of people related to the translators of the LXX.

When he says the LXX was a translation it is way more authoritative than Gmirkin. End of story.

Not so. Philo, unlike Gmirkin, cannot compare the Hebrew and Greek texts. Philo, unlike Gmirkin, cannot compare the Pentateuch to similar texts from the Near East. Philo, unlike Gmirkin, cannot understand the history of Judaea through archaeological and chronological evidence. Philo, unlike Gmirkin, assumed that the Pentateuch was true.

[Secret Alias]

What kind of bullshit is this?

Philo, unlike Gmirkin, cannot compare the Hebrew and Greek texts.

Ummm. Philo's ability in Greek is 1000x superior to Gmirkin's. He was a native speaker. You understand this right? Experts in Hebrew are UNIFORM in finding no persuasive examples of Greek influence on the Hebrew. There is a consensus on the "borrowing" of the Hebrew from Greek. It doesn't exist, it didn't happen.

[Secret Alias]

Philo, unlike Gmirkin, cannot understand the history of Judaea through archaeological and chronological evidence.

Wow. So Philo living in Alexandria 300 years from the translation of the LXX with access to the Library of Alexandria and "on the ground" knowledge of Alexandria, the Jewish community there it's history is "inferior" to Gmirkin who literally knows almost nothing about Jews in Alexandria because no archaeology, documents survive outside of those that Christians decided to preserve. This is the most incredibly stupid statement in this whole thread.

[Secret Alias]

Philo, unlike Gmirkin, assumed that the Pentateuch was true.

I never understand this argument. Either there were or weren't traditions that the LXX was an original exemplar of the Pentateuch or a translated copy of a Hebrew original. Philo doesn't know any. He was a descendant of someone who likely translated the LXX. He should know. He says the LXX was a miraculous translation. In other words, he doesn't know of a tradition of it being an original exemplar of the Pentateuch. He doesn't know because it was a translation of a Hebrew document.

[ABuddhist]

Philo, unlike Gmirkin, assumed that the Pentateuch was true.

I never understand this argument. Either there were or weren't traditions that the LXX was an original exemplar of the Pentateuch or a translated copy of a Hebrew original. Philo doesn't know any. He was a descendant of someone who likely translated the LXX. He should know. He says the LXX was a miraculous translation. In other words, he doesn't know of a tradition of it being an original exemplar of the Pentateuch. He doesn't know because it was a translation of a Hebrew document.

Why do you assume that Philo was working with accurate traditions and that he was passing them on honestly? I have already pointed out mny gaps in Philo's knowledge and training, but you naively assume that because he said it, it must be true.

But the fact the Philo believed that the Pentateuch was a true account of events reveals in microcosm how vastly different his knowledge, beliefs, worldview, and assumpions were from yours and Gmirkin's. Such a person would naturally come to different, perhaps incorrect, conclusions about the pentateuch's origins.

[Secret Alias]

Again let me say this again. If we suppose that Philo was born 25 BCE - 1 CE. He had two parents 50 BCE - 25 BCE. Four grandparents 75 BCE - 50 BCE. Eight great grandparents 100 BCE - 75 BCE. Sixteen ancestors 125 - 100 BCE. Thirty two ancestors 150 - 100 BCE. Sixty four ancestors 175 - 150 BCE. One hundred twenty eight 200 - 175 BCE. Two hundred and fifty six relatives 225 - 200 BCE. Five hundred twelve 250 - 200 BCE. One thousand twenty four ancestors who's parents might have been the original 70 translators. Do you grasp this basic fact. These 70 came over from Judea/Samaria and were known to the high priest and may have included the high priest. There weren't that many priestly families. He was related to many of the 70.