Plato and the Pentateuch

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
ABuddhist
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by ABuddhist »

Secret Alias wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:56 am
You are derailing this forum's thread to be about Lockwood, whose ideas have nothing to do with Judaism.
I wanted to demonstrate the kind of circle jerk that exists within these underground associations.
And how did you do that?
Secret Alias wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:56 am Goranson may be a lot of things but his scholarship is a few levels above Lockwood's.
Lockwood's ideas are irrelevant to this thread except infor as Gmirkin mentioned them in passing and Goranson falsely claimed that Gmirkin was endorsing Lockwood's ideas.
Secret Alias wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:56 am As I said before. It's a cool idea. It's "neat." But there is no actual positive evidence for the LXX being anything but a translation of a Hebrew text. If there is evidence I'd love to look at it.
Then why have you refused to consider the evidence which Gmirkin has cited, condemned the very practise of citing evidence in order to support, Gmirkin's model, and, I assume, never read any of Gmirkin's books? Read at least one of his books in order to learn what evidence he cites and how he supports his thesis. I have read 2 of them. I disgree with his thesis, but he has provided books of evidence and arguments supporting it which have been published by respectable academic presses.
Secret Alias
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by Secret Alias »

Then why have you refused to consider the evidence which Gmirkin has cited,
What is the evidence for the LXX being anything other than a translation? If it's so obvious and you buy into this theory based on careful consideration you surely can point to actual evidence that the LXX is not a translation of the Hebrew. I can readily point to a proof that the LXX was a translation. It comes from three centuries after the beginning of Greek rule in Egypt:

ἐάν τε Χαλδαῖοι τὴν Ἑλληνικὴν γλῶτταν ἐάν τε Ἕλληνες τὴν Χαλδαίων ἀναδιδαχθῶσι καὶ ἀμφοτέραις ταῖς γραφαῖς ἐντύχωσι, τῇ τε Χαλδαϊκῇ καὶ τῇ ἑρμηνευθείσῃ, καθάπερ ἀδελφὰς μᾶλλον δ' ὡς μίαν καὶ τὴν αὐτὴν ἔν τε τοῖς πράγμασι καὶ τοῖς ὀνόμασι τεθήπασι καὶ προσκυνοῦσιν, οὐχ ἑρμηνέας ἐκείνους ἀλλ' ἱεροφάντας καὶ προφήτας προσαγορεύοντες, οἷς ἐξεγένετο συνδραμεῖν λογισμοῖς εἱλικρινέσι τῷ Μωυσέως καθαρωτάτῳ πνεύματι. διὸ καὶ μέχρι νῦν ἀνὰ πᾶν ἔτος ἑορτὴ καὶ πανήγυρις ἄγεται κατὰ τὴν Φάρον νῆσον, εἰς ἣν οὐκ Ἰουδαῖοι μόνον ἀλλὰ καὶ παμπληθεῖς ἕτεροι διαπλέουσι τό τε χωρίον σεμνυνοῦντες, ἐν ᾧ πρῶτον τὰ τῆς ἑρμηνείας ἐξέλαμψε, καὶ παλαιᾶς ἕνεκεν εὐεργεσίας ἀεὶ νεαζούσης εὐχαριστήσοντες τῷ [42] θεῷ. μετὰ δὲ τὰς εὐχὰς καὶ τὰς εὐχαριστίας οἱ μὲν πηξάμενοι σκηνὰς ἐπὶ τῶν αἰγιαλῶν οἱ δ' ἐπὶ τῆς αἰγιαλίτιδος ψάμμου κατακλινέντες ἐν ὑπαίθρῳ μετ' οἰκείων καὶ φίλων ἑστιῶνται, πολυτελεστέραν τῆς ἐν [43] βασιλείοις κατασκευῆς τότε τὴν ἀκτὴν νομίζοντες. οὕτω μὲν οἱ νόμοι ζηλωτοὶ καὶ περιμάχητοι πᾶσιν ἰδιώταις τε καὶ ἡγεμόσιν ἐπιδείκνυνται, καὶ ταῦτ' ἐκ πολλῶν χρόνων τοῦ ἔθνους οὐκ εὐτυχοῦντος ‑ τὰ δὲ [44] τῶν μὴ ἐν ἀκμαῖς πέφυκέ πως ἐπισκιάζεσθαι ‑ · εἰ δὲ γένοιτό τις ἀφορμὴ πρὸς τὸ λαμπρότερον, πόσην εἰκὸς ἐπίδοσιν γενήσεσθαι; καταλιπόντας ἂν οἶμαι τὰ ἴδια καὶ πολλὰ χαίρειν φράσαντας τοῖς πατρίοις ἑκάστους μεταβαλεῖν ἐπὶ τὴν τούτων μόνων τιμήν· εὐτυχίᾳ γὰρ τοῦ ἔθνους οἱ νόμοι συναναλάμψαντες ἀμαυρώσουσι τοὺς ἄλλους καθάπερ ἀνατείλας ἥλιος τοὺς ἀστέρας.

It's explicit. It's incontrovertible. It's a fact. The LXX was remembered 300 years later as a translation.
Last edited by Secret Alias on Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
ABuddhist
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by ABuddhist »

Secret Alias wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:04 am Everyone in antiquity treated the text as a rendering of a/the Hebrew text. So much so that other translations emerged. Why would other translations emerge of the Hebrew if someone - anyone - knew that the LXX was a "co-exemplar." The answer is that at a very early date, i.e. ever since the festival Philo mentions commemorating the translation, it was recognized to be a translation and the whole world "forgot" that it wasn't.
People can be misled about religious matters relating to texts' translations. The Book of Mormon, for example, claims to have been translated from Hebrew or Reformed Egyptian. In China, various Buddhist texts were written in Chinese and falsely presented as translations from Sanskrit. And believing Chinese Buddhists and Mormons believed these claims.
Secret Alias
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by Secret Alias »

So Philo of Alexandria, an erudite man who was well versed in the traditions of two cultures and languages is put on the same level as fucking moronic Americans who followed a con man and ran out of coffee. Give me a break.
ABuddhist
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by ABuddhist »

Secret Alias wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:13 am
Then why have you refused to consider the evidence which Gmirkin has cited,
What is the evidence for the LXX being anything other than a translation? If it's so obvious and you buy into this theory based on careful consideration you surely can point to actual evidence that the LXX is not a translation of the Hebrew. I can readily point to a proof that the LXX was a translation. It comes from three centuries after the beginning of Greek rule in Egypt:

διὸ καὶ μέχρι νῦν ἀνὰ πᾶν ἔτος ἑορτὴ καὶ πανήγυρις ἄγεται κατὰ τὴν Φάρον νῆσον, εἰς ἣν οὐκ Ἰουδαῖοι μόνον ἀλλὰ καὶ παμπληθεῖς ἕτεροι διαπλέουσι τό τε χωρίον σεμνυνοῦντες, ἐν ᾧ πρῶτον τὰ τῆς ἑρμηνείας ἐξέλαμψε, καὶ παλαιᾶς ἕνεκεν εὐεργεσίας ἀεὶ νεαζούσης εὐχαριστήσοντες τῷ [42] θεῷ. μετὰ δὲ τὰς εὐχὰς καὶ τὰς εὐχαριστίας οἱ μὲν πηξάμενοι σκηνὰς ἐπὶ τῶν αἰγιαλῶν οἱ δ' ἐπὶ τῆς αἰγιαλίτιδος ψάμμου κατακλινέντες ἐν ὑπαίθρῳ μετ' οἰκείων καὶ φίλων ἑστιῶνται, πολυτελεστέραν τῆς ἐν [43] βασιλείοις κατασκευῆς τότε τὴν ἀκτὴν νομίζοντες. οὕτω μὲν οἱ νόμοι ζηλωτοὶ καὶ περιμάχητοι πᾶσιν ἰδιώταις τε καὶ ἡγεμόσιν ἐπιδείκνυνται, καὶ ταῦτ' ἐκ πολλῶν χρόνων τοῦ ἔθνους οὐκ εὐτυχοῦντος ‑ τὰ δὲ [44] τῶν μὴ ἐν ἀκμαῖς πέφυκέ πως ἐπισκιάζεσθαι ‑ · εἰ δὲ γένοιτό τις ἀφορμὴ πρὸς τὸ λαμπρότερον, πόσην εἰκὸς ἐπίδοσιν γενήσεσθαι; καταλιπόντας ἂν οἶμαι τὰ ἴδια καὶ πολλὰ χαίρειν φράσαντας τοῖς πατρίοις ἑκάστους μεταβαλεῖν ἐπὶ τὴν τούτων μόνων τιμήν· εὐτυχίᾳ γὰρ τοῦ ἔθνους οἱ νόμοι συναναλάμψαντες ἀμαυρώσουσι τοὺς ἄλλους καθάπερ ἀνατείλας ἥλιος τοὺς ἀστέρας.

It's explicit. It's incontrovertible. It's a fact. The LXX was remembered 300 years later as a translation.
I am not sure that I accept the claim that the Pentateuch was originally written in Greek. But why should I accept a claim from 300 years later as reflecting truth rather than propaganda of some sort? Such a possibilty should be considered when dealing with claims about religions and their histories.
Secret Alias
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by Secret Alias »

Here's what Philo said in English:

And there is a very evident proof of this; for if Chaldaeans were to learn the Greek language, and if Greeks were to learn Chaldaean, and if each were to meet with those scriptures in both languages, namely, the Chaldaic and the translated version, they would admire and reverence them both as sisters, or rather as one and the same both in their facts and in their language; considering these translators not mere interpreters but hierophants and prophets to whom it had been granted it their honest and guileless minds to go along with the most pure spirit of Moses. (41) On which account, even to this very day, there is every year a solemn assembly held and a festival celebrated in the island of Pharos, to which not only the Jews but a great number of persons of other nations sail across, reverencing the place in which the first light of interpretation shone forth, and thanking God for that ancient piece of beneficence which was always young and fresh.
Secret Alias
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by Secret Alias »

Why are there no Targums made from the LXX if the Greek is original? I can't even imagine how the description of the dialogue between God and Moses would have taken place if Greek was assumed to be the original language. Why does Clement of Alexandria (presumably from Philo) assume that Yahu is the name of the Jewish god? Where would this information have been preserved if Greek was the original language of the Pentateuch?
Last edited by Secret Alias on Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
ABuddhist
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by ABuddhist »

Secret Alias wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:15 am So Philo of Alexandria, an erudite man who was well versed in the traditions of two cultures and languages is put on the same level as fucking moronic Americans who followed a con man and ran out of coffee. Give me a break.
Taranatha was also learned in 2 cultures and their languages, but he accepted Mahayana Buddhist traditions as authentic. People, even when learned, have major blindspots when dealing with religious matters.
ABuddhist
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by ABuddhist »

Secret Alias wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:18 am Here's what Philo said in English:

And there is a very evident proof of this; for if Chaldaeans were to learn the Greek language, and if Greeks were to learn Chaldaean, and if each were to meet with those scriptures in both languages, namely, the Chaldaic and the translated version, they would admire and reverence them both as sisters, or rather as one and the same both in their facts and in their language; considering these translators not mere interpreters but hierophants and prophets to whom it had been granted it their honest and guileless minds to go along with the most pure spirit of Moses. (41) On which account, even to this very day, there is every year a solemn assembly held and a festival celebrated in the island of Pharos, to which not only the Jews but a great number of persons of other nations sail across, reverencing the place in which the first light of interpretation shone forth, and thanking God for that ancient piece of beneficence which was always young and fresh.
But that is not true. The Hebrew and the Greek pentateuchs differ in their textual contents in many ways.
Secret Alias
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by Secret Alias »

Tāranātha (1575–1634) was a Lama of the Jonang school of Tibetan Buddhism.

Last I checked Philo lived and walked in the same place the LXX was "written." He doesn't speak a word of Hebrew. He used onomastica. He knew the text was written in Hebrew. Why doesn't he know of one piece of evidence referring to the original composition of the text in Greek by fellow Alexandrians. He probably knew descendants of the original translators. None of this information got down to him. Why is that? Could it be it's a bullshit theory?
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