neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 4:42 pm
andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 7:37 am
neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 2:00 pm
andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 6:34 am
If the Pentateuch as we have it is later than this we would expect this to be explicit in the text.
Not sure I am quite with you, sorry. Do you mean we would expect Jerusalem to be mentioned in the Pentateuch?
i would expect some basis in the Pentateuch for preferring Jerusalem to mount Gerizim. Not necessarily mentioning Jerusalem by name, maybe a sanctuary in the lands allotted to Judah.
neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 2:00 pm
andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 6:34 amI've just been reading Plato's Laws and it may be worth noting that the passage in Hecataeus is IMO more obviously influenced by the Laws than is the Pentateuch.
I'd be interested in some sort of table or list of what you see as the influences.
a/ The idea of the land as previously uninhabited.
b/ The numerological/calendar basis for the 12 tribes.
c/ The priests etc appointed by merit not heredity.
d/ The emphasis on training young people for proficiency in war.
Andrew Criddle
Yes, those are valid points of comparison.
Before I read Gmirkin, though, I came up with the following list of overlaps between Plato's Laws and the Pentateuch:
1. The purposes of the law were said to make people
- --"holy / of good character like god",
- -- to make them happy,
- -- to give them blessings,
- -- to give them wisdom,
- -- victory in war
2. The law was to be written down and introduced with a Preface that narrated the divine origin of the laws and how they were passed on through one man. The laws were to inspire awe of god for their origins.
3. The first law was to honour god
4. High on the list was to honour parents
5. laws against covetousness
6. laws re homosexuality
7. laws re witchcraft
8. laws re treatment of slaves
9. against interest bearing loans
10. regarding wine and drunkenness
11. the importance that the written laws should not be mere commands and threats but that they should be couched in messages of exhortation promising rewards for obedience (see 1)
12. 12 tribes division -- and military leaders chosen from each
13. the important role of lots to avoid disputes, and services of priests (e.g. priestly duties in temple were assigned by lot)
14. laws re attitudes towards strangers
15. laws were to include warnings against forgetting them and god when they find themselves successful and blessed
16. state to bear the name of the god
17. religious festivals to be regular institutions to foster love and adhrence to the law
And all of that was before I read Gmirkin's Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible.From there can be added to the above:
a. the similar deliberative bodies: assemblies and councils, for trials of capital offences, for declaration of war and establishment of treaties
b. circuit judges, venues for assemblies, private citizens with powers of arrest, permissible for person to kill a wrongdoer in the act, hearsay evidence generally not permitted, necessity for 2 or 3 witnesses, warnings against favouritism in judgement, laws re retaliation and land pollution, the necessity for private citizens to act as informers...
c. the goring ox was to be killed -- contrast lasw in Mesopotamia where the animal was not to be killed. Plato ordered it killed.
d. various laws on assault, injury, .... some details
here
d. foundation stories --- andrew covered aspects of those. More detail
here.
e. laws for the poor and fields of harvest
too many details to list: see
here for a list of items.