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Mystery Ecbatana

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:56 am
by Ethan
Josephus - The Antiquities of the Jews

10.264 Now when Daniel was become so illustrious and famous, on account of the opinion men had that he was beloved of God, he built a tower at Ecbatana, in Media: it was a most elegant building, and wonderfully made, and it is still remaining, and preserved to this day; and to such as see it, it appears to have been lately built, and to have been no older than that very day when any one looks upon it, it is so fresh flourishing, and beautiful, and no way grown old in so long time
ὢν δὲ οὕτως ἐπίσημος καὶ λαμπρὸς ἐπὶ δόξῃ τοῦ θεοφιλὴς εἶναι Δανίηλος ᾠκοδόμησεν ἐν Ἐκβατάνοις τῆς Μηδικῆς βάριν εὐπρεπέστατόν τι κατασκεύασμα καὶ θαυμασίως πεποιημένον, ἣ μέχρι δεῦρο μὲν ἔστι καὶ σώζεται, τοῖς δ᾽ ὁρῶσι δοκεῖ προσφάτως κατεσκευάσθαι καὶ ἐπ᾽ αὐτῆς ἐκείνης ἧς ἕκαστος αὐτὴν ἡμέρας ἱστορεῖ γεγονέναι: οὕτως νεαρὸν αὐτῆς καὶ ἀκμαῖον τὸ κάλλος καὶ μηδαμοῦ γεγηρακὸς ὑπὸ τοσούτου χρόνου

10.265 for buildings suffer the same as men do, they grow old as well as they, and by numbers of years their strength is dissolved, and their beauty withered. Now they bury the kings of Media, of Persia, and Parthia in this tower to this day, and he who was entrusted with the care of it was a Jewish priest; which thing is also observed to this day.
πάσχει γὰρ καὶ τὰ κατασκευάσματα ταὐτὸν ἀνθρώποις καὶ πολιοῦται καὶ τὴν ἰσχὺν λυόμενα ὑπὸ τῶν ἐτῶν καὶ τὴν εὐπρέπειαν μαραινόμενα. θάπτουσι δ᾽ ἐν τῇ βάρει τούς τε Μήδων βασιλέας καὶ Περσῶν καὶ Πάρθων ἄχρι τοῦ δεῦρο, καὶ ὁ ταύτην πεπιστευμένος Ἰουδαῖός ἐστιν ἱερεὺς καὶ τοῦτο γίνεται μέχρι τῆς σήμερον ἡμέρας

11.99 Whereupon a book was found at Ecbatana, in the tower that was in Media, wherein was written as follows: “Cyrus the king, in the first year of his reign, commanded that the temple should be built in Jerusalem.
καὶ εὑρέθη ἐν Ἐκβατάνοις τῇ βάρει τῇ ἐν Μηδίᾳ βιβλίον, ἐν ᾧ τάδε ἦν ἀναγεγραμμένα: ‘ἐν τῷ πρώτῳ τῆς βασιλείας ἔτει Κῦρος ὁ βασιλεὺς ἐκέλευσεν τὸν ναὸν οἰκοδομηθῆναι τὸν ἐν Ἱεροσολύμοις.

According to Josephus, Daniel built a tower in Ecbatana. The word translated tower is βᾶρις, but for the tower of Babel, Josephus uses πύργος. What is the difference between βᾶρις and πύργος?

Ezra 6:2 There was found at Achmetha, in the palace that is in the province of the Medes
והשתכח באחמתא בבירתא די במדי מדינתה
καὶ εὑρέθη ἐν πόλει ἐν τῇ βάρει τῆς Μήδων πόλεως (LXX)

Is Josephus quoting Ezra?
καὶ εὑρέθη ἐν Ἐκβατάνοις τῇ βάρει τῇ ἐν Μηδίᾳ (Josephus)
καὶ εὑρέθη ἐν πόλει ἐν τῇ βάρει τῆς Μήδων (Ezra)

Why is βάρει translated tower in Josephus, but palace in Ezra?

βρία (bría) בירה the Thracian word for city (πόλις).

Ecbatana
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... batana-geo
Ἐκβάτανα, Ἀποβάτανα, Ἀγβάτανα (אחמתא)

Strabo, Geography 11.13.4 https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/te ... light=vera
Their royal summer palace is situated in a plain at Gazaca, and their winter palace in a fortress called Vera
βασίλειον δ᾽ αὐτῶν θερινὸν μὲν ἐν πεδίῳ ἱδρυμένον Γάζακα, χειμερινὸν δὲ ἐν φρουρίῳ ἐρυμνῷ Ὀυέρα

Γάζα a city in Media
γάζα treasure גנז
φρούριον fort, citadel, esp. hill-fort
ἐρυμνός fenced, fortified, strong, of hills, steep, sheer. ארמון

The Septuagint translates ארמון into βᾶρις/βᾶρος, so ארמון is probably from ἐρυμνός

Arrian, Anabasis 3.19.7 http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... ection%3D7
He instructed Parmenio to deposit the money which was being conveyed from Persis in the citadel at Ecbatana
Παρμενίωνα δὲ προσέταξε τὰ χρήματα τὰ ἐκ Περσῶν κομιζόμενα εἰς τὴν ἄκραν τὴν ἐν Ἐκβατάνοις παραδοῦναι

ἄκρα citadel built on a steep rock overhanging a town (usu. ἀκρόπολις)

εἰς τὴν ἄκραν τὴν ἐν Ἐκβατάνοις (Arrian)
ἐν Ἐκβατάνοις τῇ βάρει τῇ ἐν Μηδίᾳ (Josephus)
ἐν πόλει ἐν τῇ βάρει τῆς Μήδων (Ezra)

Strabo, Geography 15.3.10 http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... t=ecbatana
They say that, besides the treasures in Babylon and in the camp of Alexander, which were not included in the sum, the treasure found at Susa and in Persis was reckoned to amount to 40,000, and according to some writers to 50,000, talents. But others say, that the whole treasure, collected from all quarters, and transported to Ecbatana, amounted to 180,000 talents, and that the 8,000 talents which Darius carried away with him in his flight from Media became the booty of those who put him to death.

Ezra 6
1. Then Darius the king made a decree, and search was made in the house of the rolls, where the treasures were laid up in Babylon.
2. And there was found at Achmetha, in the palace.

So accordingly, the treasures and the decree that where in Babylon where transported to Ecbatana.


Pliny the Elder, Natural History 6.17 http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... t=ecbatana
Ecbatana, the capital of Media, was built by king Seleucus (I Nicator)

Strabo, Geography 11.14.15
these the Abus is near the road that leads into Ecbatana past the temple of Baris.
ὁ Ἄβος ἐγγύς ἐστι τῆς ὁδοῦ τῆς εἰς Ἐκβάτανα φερούσης παρὰ τὸν τῆς Βάριδος νεών

Temple of Baris? (Βάριδος νεών)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasmonean_Baris
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemaic_Baris
This citadel is the Birah (Hebrew: בירה) referred to in Nehemiah 2:8, 7:2, appearing as the Baris in Greek translations of the Septuagint.
Herodotus mentions another location called Ecbatana, but in Syria.

Herodotus 3.62 http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... t=ecbatana
So this proclamation was made everywhere. The herald appointed to go to Egypt, finding Cambyses and his army at Ecbatana in Syria ( Συρίης ἐν Ἀγβατάνοισι), came out before them all and proclaimed the message given him by the Magus.

Herodotus 3.64 http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... t=ecbatana
Cambyses asked what was the name of the town where he was. They told him it was Ecbatana. Now a prophecy had before this come to him from Buto, that he would end his life at Ecbatana; Cambyses supposed this to signify that he would die in old age at the Median Ecbatana, his capital city; but as the event proved, the oracle prophesied his death at Ecbatana of Syria (ἐν Συρίῃ Ἀγβατάνοισι).
No Ecbatana is known in Syria, and the attempts to explain the name (see Rawlinson ad loc.) are unconvincing. The religious coincidence is more than suspicious.
According to the Book of Judith, Arphaxad was the ruler of Ecbatana and built walls and raised towers.

Judith 1:1 Arphaxad Fortifies Ecbatana
It was the twelfth year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, who ruled over the Assyrians in the great city of Nineveh.
In those days Arphaxad (᾿Αρφαξάδ) ruled over the Medes in Ecbatana ( Μήδων ἐν ᾿Εκβατάνοις)
He built walls around Ecbatana with hewn stones three cubits thick and six cubits long
he made the walls seventy cubits high and fifty cubits wide.
At its gates he raised towers ( πύργους) one hundred cubits high and sixty cubits wide at the foundations.

Summer home?

Strabo, Geography 11.13
Media is divided into two parts. One part of it is called Greater Media, of which the metropolis (μητρόπολις) is Ecbatana (μητρόπολις), a large city (μεγάλη πόλις) containing the royal residence of the Median empire (the Parthians continue to use this as a royal residence even now, and their kings spend at least their summers (θερίζουσι) there.
לקוצרים, יקצרון θερίζουσι

Xenophon, Anabasis 3.5.15
Ecbatana, where the King is said to spend his summers
Ἐκβάτανα φέροι, ἔνθα θερίζειν λέγεται βασιλεύς,
לחריש, לקציר θερίζειν

Xenophon, Cyropedia 8.6.22
Cyrus himself made his home in the centre of his domain, and in the winter season he spent seven months in Babylon, for there the climate is warm; in the spring he spent three months in Susa, and in the height of summer two months in Ecbatana. By so doing, they say, he enjoyed the warmth and coolness of perpetual spring-time.

αὐτὸς δ᾽ ἐν μέσῳ τούτων τὴν δίαιταν ποιησάμενος, τὸν μὲν ἀμφὶ τὸν χειμῶνα χρόνον διῆγεν ἐν Βαβυλῶνι ἑπτὰ μῆνας: αὕτη γὰρ ἀλεεινὴ ἡ χώρα: τὸν δὲ ἀμφὶ τὸ ἔαρ τρεῖς μῆνας ἐν Σούσοις: τὴν δὲ ἀκμὴν τοῦ θέρους δύο μῆνας ἐν Ἐκβατάνοις: οὕτω δὴ ποιοῦντ᾽ αὐτὸν λέγουσιν ἐν ἐαρινῷ θάλπει καὶ ψύχει διάγειν ἀεί.


Re: Mystery Ecbatana

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 9:52 am
by Ethan
Xenophon, Cyropedia 8.6.22
Cyrus himself made his home in the centre of his domain, and in the winter season he spent seven months in Babylon, for there the climate is warm; in the spring he spent three months in Susa, and in the height of summer two months in Ecbatana. By so doing, they say, he enjoyed the warmth and coolness of perpetual spring-time.

Strabo, Geography 11.13.4
Their royal summer palace is situated in a plain at Gazaca, and their winter palace in a fortress called Vera
According to Xenophon, Cyrus spent his summer in Ecbatana, then this would be the royal summer palace at Gazaca (Γάζακα).
cf. γάζα (gáza) treasure.

Ezra 5:17 In the treasure house of the King
בבית גנזיא די־מלכא (MT)
ἐν οἴκῳ τῆς γάζης τοῦ βασιλέως (LXX)

This treasure house was in Ecbatana (Ezra 6:2). Another word for which is γαζοφυλάκιον (gazophulakion).

The word γαζοφυλάκιον appears in the Septuagint for לשכה and נשכה.

Nehemiah 10:38
And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers into the treasure house. (אל־הלשכות לבית האוצר)

λέσχη לשכה, נשכה
couch, hence, funeral bier or tomb, lounging place, resort of idlers or beggars, public building or hall, used as a lounge or meeting-place, esp. at Sparta and in other Doric cities.

θησαυρός אוצר
a store laid up, treasure, a storehouse, treasure-house, the treasury of a temple.

Re: Mystery Ecbatana

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:53 pm
by neilgodfrey
Ethan wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:56 am
According to Josephus, Daniel built a tower in Ecbatana. The word translated tower is βᾶρις, but for the tower of Babel, Josephus uses πύργος. What is the difference between βᾶρις and πύργος?
Just for fun, I ran your question through ChatGPT and was given this answer:

Question submitted to ChatGPT:
According to Josephus, Daniel built a tower in Ecbatana. The word translated tower is βᾶρις, but for the tower of Babel, Josephus uses πύργος. What is the difference between βᾶρις and πύργος?

ChatGPT's response:
In ancient Greek, βᾶρις (baris) and πύργος (pyrgos) were two different words used to refer to different types of structures. βᾶρις usually referred to a defensive structure or fortification, while πύργος referred to a tall, imposing building such as a tower or a lighthouse. In the context of Josephus's writing, the choice of word may reflect his view of the purpose or nature of the structure in question.

Is it too early to dispense with the forum now?

Re: Συρίης

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:45 pm
by billd89
neilgodfrey wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:53 pmIs it too early to dispense with the forum now?
I'm glad someone else is at attention on the AI front.

"Syria" as the (Egyptian) Siriad of the Canaanite Phoenicians would not necessarily be in the Syria we first think of. Josephus references that "other Syria" also. Where was Babylon in Egypt, again?

ChatGPT's response:
In ancient Greek, βᾶρις (baris) and πύργος (pyrgos) were two different words used to refer to different types of structures. βᾶρις usually referred to a defensive structure or fortification, while πύργος referred to a tall, imposing building such as a tower or a lighthouse. In the context of Josephus's writing, the choice of word may reflect his view of the purpose or nature of the structure in question.

On πύργος, GoogleSearch tells me:
Etymology. The word is first attested in Homer, Iliad 7.219. Believed to be a borrowed word, perhaps from Urartian 𒁓𒂵𒈾 (bur-ga-na /burgana/, “pillar, column; altar, base, or built-up foundation”), however this may itself be a loan with no known Hurrian cognate; compare also Old Armenian բուրգն (burgn, “pyramid”).

Pirgos suggests 'watch-tower' or 'altar' in the religious context, but alternate meanings are possible.

Re: Mystery Ecbatana

Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:12 am
by Ethan
Plutarch, Artaxerxes 27.3
That is, he appointed her (Aspasia) a priestess of the Artemis of Ecbatana, who bears the name of Anaïtis
τῆς γὰρ Ἀρτέμιδος τῆς ἐν Ἐκβατάνοις, ἣν Ἀναῗτιν καλοῦσιν, ἱέρειαν ἀνέδειξεν αὐτήν

Strabo 12.3
In the district Zelitis is the city Zela, built upon the mound of Semiramis. It contains the temple of Anaitis, whom the Armenians also worship.
ἡ δὲ Ζηλῖτις ἔχει πόλιν Ζῆλα ἐπὶ χώματι Σεμιράμιδος τετειχισμένην, ἔχουσαν τὸ ἱερὸν τῆς Ἀναΐτιδος, ἥνπερ καὶ οἱ Ἀρμένιοι σέβονται

Ζῆλα (Zela) might be named for Δῆλος (Delos), the birthplace of Artemis. Hb. שילה (Shiloh)

The Antiquities of the Jews, 1.71
The Land of Siriad (γῆν τὴν Σειρίδα)

Σειρίδα is in the gen, so the nom would Σειρίς (Seiris), it could be a shortening of Σεμιράμις (Semiramis).

σειρά cord, rope, trace
σειράω bind or draw with a rope
σειραῖος joined by a cord or band

Ecclesiastes 4:14 הסורים = τῶν σειραίων "joined by a cord"
2 Kings 7:10 החמור אסור = ὅ ὄνος ἐρμένος "the ass tied"