Any information about Jews from Persian sources?

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
Post Reply
rgprice
Posts: 2056
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Any information about Jews from Persian sources?

Post by rgprice »

What information do we have about Persian administration and the Persian state from Persian or Greek sources? What sources describe how the Persians integrated other cultures within their empire? How did the Persians enforce laws? To whom did they grant governorship, etc.?

We know from the Elephantine works that the Jews in Yeb (Elephantine) had to appeal to Persian administrators in Samaria and Judah for assistance and approval. Who was allowed to make laws? Who was allowed to enforce laws? Who was allowed to raise taxes? For what purpose could taxes be used? etc.
Last edited by rgprice on Wed Feb 22, 2023 12:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
neilgodfrey
Posts: 6161
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: Any information about Jews from Persian sources?

Post by neilgodfrey »

You might want to track down some of these:

Berquist, Jon L., ed. Approaching Yehud: New Approaches to the Study of the Persian Period. Atlanta: Society of Biblical Literature, 2007. https://archive.org/details/approachingyehud0000unse

Cataldo, Jeremiah W. A Theocratic Yehud?: Issues of Government in a Persian Province. T & T Clark Library of Biblical Studies. New York: T & T Clark International, 2009. http://site.ebrary.com/id/10490280.

Edelman, Diana Vikander. The Origins of the Second Temple: Persian Imperial Policy and the Rebuilding of Jerusalem. Revised edition. London ; Oakville, CT: Routledge, 2016.

Knowles, and Melody D. Centrality Practiced: Jerusalem in the Religious Practice of Yehud and the Diaspora during the Persian Period. Atlanta: Society of Biblical Literature, 2006.

Lipschits, Oded, Gary N. Knoppers, and Manfred Oeming, eds. Judah and the Judeans in the Achaemenid Period: Negotiating Identity in an International Context. Illustrated edition. Winona Lake, Ind: Eisenbrauns, 2011. // Lipschits, Oded, and Manfred Oeming, eds. Judah and the Judeans in the Persian Period. Winona Lake, Ind: Eisenbrauns, 2006.

Watts, James W., ed. Persia and Torah : The Theory of Imperial Authorization of the Pentateuch. Atlanta, Ga. : Society of Biblical Literature, 2001. http://archive.org/details/persiatorahtheor0000unse.
Last edited by neilgodfrey on Tue Feb 21, 2023 7:45 pm, edited 4 times in total.
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3411
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Any information about Jews from Persian sources?

Post by DCHindley »

rgprice wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:21 am What information do we have about Persian administration and the Persian state from Persian or Greek sources? What sources describe how the Persians integrated other cultures without their empire? How did the Persians enforce laws? To whom did they grant governorship, etc.?

We know from the Elephantine works that the Jews in Yeb (Elephantine) had to appeal to Persian administrator in Samaria and Judah for assistance and approval. Who was allowed to make laws? Who was allowed to enforce laws? Who was allowed to raise taxes? For what purpose could taxes be used? etc.
I would recommend Jacob Neusner, A History of the Jews in Babylonia (5 volumes, 1964-1970). Here is a list of the 2008 Wipf & Stock reprints:

Part I: The Parthian Period (ISBN: 9781606080740), 12/15/2008, $25.60 US
Part II: The Early Sasanian Period (ISBN: 9781606080757), 7/15/2008, $33.60 US
Part III: From Shapur I to Shapur II (ISBN: 9781606080764), 12/11/08, $38.40 US
Part IV: The Age of Shapur II (ISBN: 9781606080771), 10/27/2008, $45.60 US
Part V: Later Sasanian Times (ISBN: 9781606080788), 12/11/2008, $44.80 US

I have only the first volume, as it relates to the period of religious development that appeals to me, but all of Neusner's historical works are very well researched, even if one does not always agree with the reasoning he employs to justify his historical explanations.

DCH
rgprice
Posts: 2056
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Re: Any information about Jews from Persian sources?

Post by rgprice »

Thanks. I'm currently reading Persia and Torah : The Theory of Imperial Authorization of the Pentateuch.

I'm struck by the claim on page 2 that the Persians would have granted the Pentateuch "official law" in Jerusalem, with little or no attention to the content of the law.

Can this possibly be true? I can't imagine any administration, anywhere in the world, at any time, that would simply say, "Sure, just use whatever laws you want, we won't bother reviewing them."

This just seems patently absurd.

And this is the thing. It is difficult to imagine how the laws set out in the Pentateuch would not have run afoul of Persian law and Persian interests.

I mean: "Exodus 22:20 “Whoever sacrifices to any god other than YHWH must be destroyed."

Really, are the Persians going to allow this?

And again, the Sabbath? Were the Persians really going to accept no work in one out of seven days?

Exodus 23:
10 “For six years you are to sow your fields and harvest the crops, 11 but during the seventh year let the land lie unplowed and unused. Then the poor among your people may get food from it, and the wild animals may eat what is left. Do the same with your vineyard and your olive grove.

12 “Six days do your work, but on the seventh day do not work, so that your ox and your donkey may rest, and so that the slave born in your household and the foreigner living among you may be refreshed.

13 “Be careful to do everything I have said to you. Do not invoke the names of other gods; do not let them be heard on your lips.

The Persians were cool with this?

Despite much skepticism of Jewish sources, Lester Grabbe concludes that the Pentateuch as we know it was certainly in existence by the 4th century BCE.
User avatar
neilgodfrey
Posts: 6161
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: Any information about Jews from Persian sources?

Post by neilgodfrey »

rgprice wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 1:14 am Thanks. I'm currently reading Persia and Torah : The Theory of Imperial Authorization of the Pentateuch.
Since posting my list I added another with a link to archive.org.
rgprice wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 1:14 am
I mean: "Exodus 22:20 “Whoever sacrifices to any god other than YHWH must be destroyed."

Really, are the Persians going to allow this
I have seen studies that say even the code of Hammurabi was not a "real law" in the sense of being applied to the letter in "real life" -- it was a statement of past decisions or ideals that was posted as a propaganda idealistic monument -- judges meantime were allowed free reign within their own traditions and customs.

I have also seen studies that suggest the biblical laws were fictional narratives more than a "real" law code. I doubt any law would really declare one had to only take one egg from a nest and leave the other to hatch. As for the sabbath, Jews were drafted into the armies of their imperial powers. Sabbath was irrelevant.

The first time we see evidence of an attempt to apply the laws is with the Hasmoneans, I think. But the laws were in written form before then.

Don't forget the importance of "oral law" -- the oral tradition from Moses that was significant in the Second Temple era. Oral law allowed for interpretation of written law in a way that was probably more realistic for everyday life.
Last edited by neilgodfrey on Wed Feb 22, 2023 2:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
neilgodfrey
Posts: 6161
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: Any information about Jews from Persian sources?

Post by neilgodfrey »

Speaking of the devil, look what just came to me....
The “discovery” of the [Hebrew legal fictions] reveals that the casuistic laws in Deuteronomy 19–25 do not constitute fragments of an old law collection, akin to those produced by their Mesopotamian neighbors. What we have instead is the illusion of a law collection, facilitated by the later scribes’ employment of the same methods of composition and format that are present in the collections.
https://academic.oup.com/book/39831/cha ... m=fulltext

See also the books by Carmichael for some new thoughts for you:

Carmichael, Calum M. Law and Narrative in the Bible: The Evidence of the Deuteronomic Laws and the Decalogue. Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 1985,.
———. The Origins of Biblical Law: The Decalogues and the Book of the Covenant. Ithaca, N.Y: Cornell University Press, 1992.

-- both in archive.org
User avatar
neilgodfrey
Posts: 6161
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: Any information about Jews from Persian sources?

Post by neilgodfrey »

and one more (also in archive.org)

Carmichael, Calum. Illuminating Leviticus: A Study of Its Laws and Institutions in the Light of Biblical Narratives. Baltimore, Md.: Johns Hopkins University Press, 2006.
Post Reply