Historical paradigms and Christianity before Constantine

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by Secret Alias »

Origens in the 3rd century - one a Christian, the other a Platonist (Each having their own "teacher" called Ammonius - one a Christian, the other a Platonist)
Please explain, what's the point I already know what the response will be - more BS, why this view would contradict my claim that Momigliano accepted the existence of a Christian Origen and a pagan Celsus.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by Leucius Charinus »

StephenGoranson wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 4:54 am Though Momigliano did write articles in History and Theory periodical, LC/Pete, I did not find an article titled "The Impact of Christianity on the Definition of Scholarship" there or elsewhere, but maybe I missed something.
I'd like to thank you for looking anyway SG.
Momigliano did write, according to google books advanced search, Ottavo Contributo..., 1987, p. 318:

"It is therefore significant that the first time we come across some serious concern with the relation between Roman polytheism and Roman Empire is in that man Celsus who in about A.D. 180 polemized against the Christians and whom eighty years later Origen chose as his adversary in his devastating Contra Celsum."

In other words, M. accepted that Celsus lived, and before Constantine.
Whether one or two men named Origen lived too does not contradict his view that Celsus existed.
I would be surprised if M. held the view that Origen (or Eusebius who preserved Origen) fabricated Celsus. That was not my point. My point was that M. knows full well that we are not reading whatever Celsus may have written in his original work because we do not have that original work we only have the work of his refutor Origen. M. simply writes "it is indeed impossible to be certain that Celsus is fairly represented by the texts Origen quotes to refute him".

From this statement I infer that M. is (rightfully) skeptical about accepting at face value anything Origen may have written about what Celsus actually wrote. This isn't difficult to understand. Consider two opposing political parties. Without having the original literature of party A on various issues how can we be certain that the literature of party B, which is designed to refute the original literature of party A, is faithfully representing the original literature of their opponents? We can't.
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by StephenGoranson »

It may be that we do not have the exact words of Celsus.
But, according to Momigliano, and me, Celsus criticised Christianity in about 180.
If so, then Christianity existed before the time of Constantine.
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Leucius Charinus
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Historical paradigms and Christianity before Constantine

Post by Leucius Charinus »

That Christianity existed before Constantine is an historical paradigm believed to be true by everyone - Momigliano, yourself, everyone here and all historians of antiquity. I could be wrong but AFAIK I am the first to challenge this paradigm from first principles.

What this challenge (from first principles) involves is to seek the certain and unambiguous primary evidence upon which this historical paradigm rests. I expected to find such evidence in the first days, weeks and months of my study and actively and exhaustively searched for such primary evidence. I recognised that I had the obligation to do so. Anyone who puts forward any alternate hypothesis has the obligation to seek out not just the positive evidence which may support it, but equally to seek out the negative evidence which refutes or falsifies the alternate hypothesis.

In the second year of my study I sent to the Journal of Hellenic Studies a thesis that Constantine invented Christianity (September 2007) and received a referee report (Oct 2007).

http://mountainman.com.au/essenes/thesi ... eports.htm
SG wrote:It may be that we do not have the exact words of Celsus. But, according to Momigliano, and me, Celsus criticised Christianity in about 180.
If so, then Christianity existed before the time of Constantine.
One cannot argue (as you do above) that an alternate hypothesis from first principles against a paradigm is wrong by simply appealing to the authority and perceived truth of the paradigm. One must confront such an argument directly from first principles by adducing evidence that falsifies the alternate hypothesis.

In the case of Origen's refutation of Celsus we certainly do not have such primary evidence. The earliest extant manuscript for Origen's refutation of Celsus is not prior to Constantine. We may make the inference that Origen's refutation of Celsus was prior to Constantine but an inference is not evidence.
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

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You could make the same arguments for the non-existence of Julius Caesar.
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

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Since you, LC, PT, MM, again gave the reply from the J. of Hellenic Studies, I would say that that note to you was a good explanation, and, inter alia, offered the example of Jean Hardouin, who, in his life, demonstrated an elaborate conviction of a history assertion that was surely bogus.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by Leucius Charinus »

You could make the same arguments for the non-existence of Julius Caesar.
No way. History is about evidence.

Image

Your search for 'julius caesar' matched 665 lots from auctions added in the last six months.
https://www.coinarchives.com/a/results. ... ius+caesar

Also see:
Epigraphical Notes on Julius Caesar
Author(s): A. E. Raubitschek
Source: The Journal of Roman Studies , 1954, Vol. 44 (1954), pp. 65-75
Published by: Society for the Promotion of Roman Studies
Stable URL: https://www.jstor.org/stable/297557
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by Leucius Charinus »

StephenGoranson wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:29 am Since you, LC, PT, MM, again gave the reply from the J. of Hellenic Studies, I would say that that note to you was a good explanation, and, inter alia, offered the example of Jean Hardouin, who, in his life, demonstrated an elaborate conviction of a history assertion that was surely bogus.
The comparison and association of this 4th century Christian origins theory to those of Hardouin and Kircher overlooks the use this theory makes of the radiocarbon C14 dating citations which in themselves refute the theories of Hardouin and Kircher. These earlier theories are NOT consistent with the C14 evidence.

OTOH all C14 dating results for Christian related manuscript evidence point to an epoch after the Nicene Council.

The natural assumption inherent in the mainstream chronological paradigm (for a theoretical 1st and/or 2nd century Christian origins) is that older manuscripts existed that have been lost. Is this a conviction of a history assertion by the mainstream paradigm that is itself bogus? Time and evidence will tell.
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by StephenGoranson »

That all Christian mss dated and date to Constantine's time and later is your, LC/PT/MM, inference,
without evidence.
Coins, as the J. Hellenic Studies message tried to tell you, can be faked; "don't take any wooden nickels."
I haven't minted a personal coin (not counting a failed try from copper wire in third or fourth grade), and haven't got c14 evidence for my existence. Yet, here I am.
Brent Nongbri, in a skeptical review of the dating of Rylands gJohn, P52, gives (in NTS 66, 2020: 471-499) a later and longer date range than c.125--but still before Constantine.
Rejecting the existence of Celsus, and Origen, and Dura Europos evidence, unlike Momigliano, does not stem from good history methodology. imo
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by Secret Alias »

The reason all these theories go back to mountainman is that when you start manipulating evidence you end up with the "Constantine invented Christianity" charge.
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