The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by neilgodfrey »

fwiw, autendw has expressed an interest in returning after he does some more reading -- what is particularly exhausting is the format where multiple questions can be set up with no easy way to address them all or the key ones, which was why I expressed an preference for starting a new thread focusing on core points: but I also said I did not think I could endure SG and SA once again barging in and doing all they can to derail the discussion, --

I notice some spectators can do nothing more than shout unhelpful comments from the sidelines at the side they are opposing --- rational argument be damned as far as such spectators are concerned.
StephenGoranson
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by StephenGoranson »

Russell E. Gmirkin, Plato's Timaeus and the Biblical Creation Accounts...(2022) page 89:
"....It follows that the proto-LXX _Vorlage_ for the Septuagint translation was the original text of the Pentateuch created circa 270 BCE...."

That, plus other references to "authoritative copy," "authoritative version," "definitive version of the Hebrew text of the Pentateuch," and similar quotes from REG publications, appears to indicate a proposal of a single Hebrew text.

(Contra neilgodfrey, above, Sat May 27, 2023 5:15 am?)
Secret Alias
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

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fwiw, autendw has expressed an interest in returning after he does some more reading
I got a different sense from his explicit mention of fatigue, aggravation and irritability. You are a mythicist though. Keep making up these stories.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by neilgodfrey »

Secret Alias wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:54 pm
fwiw, autendw has expressed an interest in returning after he does some more reading
I got a different sense from his explicit mention of fatigue, aggravation and irritability. You are a mythicist though. Keep making up these stories.
Er --- as I said, we have had friendly correspondence away from this forum and he told me so himself.

And I have said many times I am not a mythicist but you keep repeating that blatant falsehood. Like I don't even have a sense of fairness. I just like to be a contrarian. Get real. You seem hell bent on demonstrating that you never actually read what you appear to be responding to. You have absolutely nothing to contribute to this discussion except cheap slanging remarks at those who are serious players. All you can do is drop sarcastic comments after the discussion has finished. Gmirkin and I respond to your queries in depth over time and you simply ignore them or find them incomprehensible and keep repeating the same questions as if they have never been addressed -- why?
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by neilgodfrey »

StephenGoranson wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:28 pm Russell E. Gmirkin, Plato's Timaeus and the Biblical Creation Accounts...(2022) page 89:
"....It follows that the proto-LXX _Vorlage_ for the Septuagint translation was the original text of the Pentateuch created circa 270 BCE...."

That, plus other references to "authoritative copy," "authoritative version," "definitive version of the Hebrew text of the Pentateuch," and similar quotes from REG publications, appears to indicate a proposal of a single Hebrew text.

(Contra neilgodfrey, above, Sat May 27, 2023 5:15 am?)
Gee Stephen -- you say you are "familiar" with RG's works so how is it you are not aware that RG is very aware of the Dead Sea Scrolls and early variants of the what he says was intended to be the authoritative work of the Pentateuch?

It is the variants, after all, that demonstrate that our existing versions are not the original!

Surely you can see that if someone intends a work to be standard that it does not follow that they inevitably succeeded for their entire generation to have avoided variants arising.

Why the question mark on the time? -- you seem to be stalkingly curious about my movements --- I can assure you that 5:15 am is not the time on my version of the post. I wonder if it is even possible that with modern technology the time shown to different users varies according to their location .... would you like a copy of my daily routine to reassure you?
StephenGoranson
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by StephenGoranson »

A reply to neilgodfrey, post just above.
I merely copied the time stamp in order to identify the post. The question mark was for the "Contra" phrase, not for the time.

Russell Gmirkin wrote, in part, on BC&HF, in the "Two Failures of the 270s creation proposal?" thread, post with the time stamp of quote Sat Dec 17, 2022 12:09 pm unquote, the following:

"[...] Hellenistic Era Judea, out of all the nations of the ancient world, was the only one to adopt Plato’s strategy for creating a new constitution, laws and theocratic form of government, supported by a sacred national literature, and that the Jewish experiment succeeded exactly as Plato envisioned, creating an eternal national legal charter that has survived down through time to the present day."

Let me draw attention to the words "succeeded exactly."
*But that did not happen.*
Secret Alias
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by Secret Alias »

Funny that Celsus thought that Judaism appropriation was from Egypt the nation.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by neilgodfrey »

Let's summarize the core difference between the arguments raised in austendw's criticism and my defence of the Lemche-Gmirkin model, which will essentially be the core differences between the case for the diachronic view of the creation of the Pentateuch through the Persian era and the "one time" creation of the text in the early Hellenistic era.

The same evidence - different interpretation

Both austendw and I agree on referring to the same evidence for seams, inconsistencies, repetitions, confusions of narrative points, even contradictions, that are found within the Pentateuch but we each interpret that same evidence differently.

Either these details are better explained, in general, as the result of redactions etc over generations or they are the result, in general, of collaborative dialogue and compromise within a shorter time-frame, more likely months.

One of my criticisms of the diachronic view was that we would expect later revisers to remove or re-write entirely any old material they thought to be outdated or wrong and replace it with the new ideas they believed should hold sway. ausentdw's responded that there were presumably enough representatives of the old ideas still present to prevent that from happening. My response to that point was that this was exactly the same scenario that the simpler hypothesis -- of collaboration and compromise of different parties -- was proposing.

Are the similarities "real"?

Another criticism of austendw was that Gmirkin's comparative analysis of the Greek and Hebrew writings lacked the detailed thoroughness of other analytical efforts that pointed to various criteria. My response was that though Gmirkin did not structure his case under criteria headings, any reading of his arguments would demonstrate a detailed thoroughness of comparative analysis, not only with Greek works but with other works associated with Mesopotamia and Syria.

Another objection to Gmirkin's analysis was that one can find many details that do not appear to be borrowings from the Greeks but are clearly from Asian cultures. My response there was to acknowledge this fact but to point out that that's how all comparisons work: if there were no differences there would be no comparisons but only direct copying. What is important is that both the differences and similarities can be well explained by whatever hypothesis is being proposed.

Maybe only an elite knew of the Pentateuch

Another objection of mine to the diachronic hypothesis was that we lacked independent evidence for existence the Pentateuch prior to the Hellenistic era. Rather, the pre-hellenistic evidence of Yahweh worship throughout Syria-Nabatean regions and the Elephantine remains point to an absence of awareness of Pentateuch narratives and codes prior to the third century BCE.

One objection to my point of view is that there is no reason for the Pentateuch to have existed prior to the Hellenistic era but simply to have not been known among the general public -- it was confined to scribal elites. My response to that objection is that even it is unlikely, given that the "ideology" and literary genres are essentially Greek and not Mesopotamian-Syrian. They are not "purely Greek", obviously, but Hellenism means a blending of the two broad strands of culture.

If only an elite knew of the Pentateuch, we are still left with the problem of explaining how a work of such a genre and expressing such ideologies arose in a non-Greek environment.

Why not earlier Greek influence?

Another objection to my view was that Greek influence could well have made its way to Canaan prior to the Hellenistic era. Indeed, there are some scholars who acknowledge some Greek influence in the Pentateuch who posit as much, some even suggesting the direction of influence was the reverse. My response here was that the kinds of cultural influence required for what we argue is in the Pentateuch requires more than the presence of traders.

----

Obviously I expect readers to be alert to bias on my part in how I have presented the above, but I welcome any further elaboration that better presents the diachronic view that austendw was arguing.
Secret Alias
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by Secret Alias »

How charitable of you to take advantage of austen's fatigue to summarize the debate in a way that serves your purposes. That really proves that we're all after the same thing - the truth.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by neilgodfrey »

Secret Alias wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:49 pm How charitable of you to take advantage of austen's fatigue to summarize the debate in a way that serves your purposes. That really proves that we're all after the same thing - the truth.
Do you have a positive contribution to make, SA? Perhaps draw attention to any particular misrepresentation? Response to any particular argument at a rational level?

Would you have said the same if austendw had had the last word in my momentary absence? Hard to imagine -- I suspect you'd be gloating that I had left because I admitted defeat.

Am I to be attacked because I attempt to sum up the diverse threads of a previous exchange? Why?

Please drop this personal attack stuff. It really is tiresome - and harassing.

Added later....

Why, SA, did you begin to really dig the boot into Gmirkin with insults AFTER he "tired" of trying to reasonably discuss the issues with you? Why didn't you call him back to respond to those low attacks?
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