The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

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StephenGoranson
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by StephenGoranson »

I do not find the summary by neilgodfrey above (time stamp for ID purposes: Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:39 pm)
to be even-handed. I have lately found attempts at dialog with ng largely unsatisfactory, in content and in tone. For now I mention merely one point, namely, the ng use of the term "the Lemche-Gmirkin model." Though there are similarities between the two writers' proposals, there are also significant differences.

For example, RE Gmirkin wrote, in his 2022 Plato's Timaeus... book, pages 15-16:
"The relative merits of the arguments of the Minimalist versus Maximalist debate need not concern us here, since the methodology adopted in the present study gives preferential weight to neither the earliest nor latest possible date, collecting comparative and source critical evidence across the whole allowable date range before drawing inferences."
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by neilgodfrey »

StephenGoranson wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 5:16 am I do not find the summary by neilgodfrey above (time stamp for ID purposes: Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:39 pm)
to be even-handed.

Kindly support your assertion with specicfic evidence that I have in any way misrepresented the fundamental points of austendw. For convenience, I have copied my summary points below. I especially direct your attention to my concluding sentence!!
StephenGoranson wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 5:16 amI have lately found attempts at dialog with ng largely unsatisfactory, in content and in tone.
Kindly support your assertion with evidence where you have ever attempted to "dialog with ng" -- every response to my words that I recall is addressing me in the third person so that you are dialoguing "about" ng but never "with" ng.

Also, kindly cite actual evidence in context of what you find problematic in my "tone". Yes, I try to be direct. Is that a problem with you? Would you like me to add more smileys? Would that improve my tone in your eyes? Or do you object to my calling you out for your casuistry and ad homina and misrepresentations?
StephenGoranson wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 5:16 am For now I mention merely one point, namely, the ng use of the term "the Lemche-Gmirkin model." Though there are similarities between the two writers' proposals, there are also significant differences.
Then it follows that my use of the term was to address what was similar between the two. You are familiar with Gmirkin's work so you know what that core similarity is -- made explicit by Gmirkin himself.

Let's summarize the core difference between the arguments raised in austendw's criticism and my defence of the Lemche-Gmirkin model, which will essentially be the core differences between the case for the diachronic view of the creation of the Pentateuch through the Persian era and the "one time" creation of the text in the early Hellenistic era.

The same evidence - different interpretation

Both austendw and I agree on referring to the same evidence for seams, inconsistencies, repetitions, confusions of narrative points, even contradictions, that are found within the Pentateuch but we each interpret that same evidence differently.

Either these details are better explained, in general, as the result of redactions etc over generations or they are the result, in general, of collaborative dialogue and compromise within a shorter time-frame, more likely months.

One of my criticisms of the diachronic view was that we would expect later revisers to remove or re-write entirely any old material they thought to be outdated or wrong and replace it with the new ideas they believed should hold sway. ausentdw's responded that there were presumably enough representatives of the old ideas still present to prevent that from happening. My response to that point was that this was exactly the same scenario that the simpler hypothesis -- of collaboration and compromise of different parties -- was proposing.

Are the similarities "real"?

Another criticism of austendw was that Gmirkin's comparative analysis of the Greek and Hebrew writings lacked the detailed thoroughness of other analytical efforts that pointed to various criteria. My response was that though Gmirkin did not structure his case under criteria headings, any reading of his arguments would demonstrate a detailed thoroughness of comparative analysis, not only with Greek works but with other works associated with Mesopotamia and Syria.

Another objection to Gmirkin's analysis was that one can find many details that do not appear to be borrowings from the Greeks but are clearly from Asian cultures. My response there was to acknowledge this fact but to point out that that's how all comparisons work: if there were no differences there would be no comparisons but only direct copying. What is important is that both the differences and similarities can be well explained by whatever hypothesis is being proposed.

Maybe only an elite knew of the Pentateuch

Another objection of mine to the diachronic hypothesis was that we lacked independent evidence for existence the Pentateuch prior to the Hellenistic era. Rather, the pre-hellenistic evidence of Yahweh worship throughout Syria-Nabatean regions and the Elephantine remains point to an absence of awareness of Pentateuch narratives and codes prior to the third century BCE.

One objection to my point of view is that there is no reason for the Pentateuch to have existed prior to the Hellenistic era but simply to have not been known among the general public -- it was confined to scribal elites. My response to that objection is that even it is unlikely, given that the "ideology" and literary genres are essentially Greek and not Mesopotamian-Syrian. They are not "purely Greek", obviously, but Hellenism means a blending of the two broad strands of culture.

If only an elite knew of the Pentateuch, we are still left with the problem of explaining how a work of such a genre and expressing such ideologies arose in a non-Greek environment.

Why not earlier Greek influence?

Another objection to my view was that Greek influence could well have made its way to Canaan prior to the Hellenistic era. Indeed, there are some scholars who acknowledge some Greek influence in the Pentateuch who posit as much, some even suggesting the direction of influence was the reverse. My response here was that the kinds of cultural influence required for what we argue is in the Pentateuch requires more than the presence of traders.

----

Obviously I expect readers to be alert to bias on my part in how I have presented the above, but I welcome any further elaboration that better presents the diachronic view that austendw was arguing.

Secret Alias
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by Secret Alias »

Rest assured. You will inevitably get the last word because no one wants to win as badly as you. Congratulations.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by neilgodfrey »

Secret Alias wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 5:42 pm Rest assured. You will inevitably get the last word because no one wants to win as badly as you. Congratulations.
I did notice that SG and SA from the sidelines cheering one side as if it's about their team or argument "winning". Totally divorced from any interest in actually investigating the arguments, both of them, and evaluating them .... and the only contribution that such a person is able to make is to comment on the motives and character of the respective players.

I posted the above summary because I think that there are at least some people who really are interested in the arguments. I do wish you would stop your attempts to derail the thread with personal character assessments.

The summary is an attempt to give both sides of the argument. But because it's from me..... you have to read it differently and turn it into an opportunity for a personal hate-fest.
Secret Alias
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by Secret Alias »

Really. So you're the truth seeker and we're the partisans. I can't think of a single amicable interchange between Stephen and I before this fairy tale about the Greek origin of Judaism came to dominate discussions in this section of the site.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by neilgodfrey »

Secret Alias wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:08 am Really. So you're the truth seeker and we're the partisans. I can't think of a single amicable interchange between Stephen and I before this fairy tale about the Greek origin of Judaism came to dominate discussions in this section of the site.
Well I'm sorry to hear you say that, Stephan. I believed I was being very amicable and very patient in a cordial spirit in at least some of our earlier and longer continuous exchanges -- especially the one on the history of the northern Israelite kingdom and its identity as Israel/Samaria -- before you suddenly turned on me with a real hit -- though I was ignoring your earlier "minor jibes" I thought inappropriate, trying not to let them interfere in a productive discussion. Perhaps you are reading attitudes into posts that are entirely of your own imagining. I spent a lot of time attempting to engage in a way that would bring about at least mutual understanding if not agreement. The end result was your declaration of proud anti-intellectualism, including sneering at me for using a word or two you did not seem to understand. I was taken aback and very sorry you were reading me that way.

If other exchanges have not been pleasant you surely know full well that it was not me who initiated the insults and I was always attempting to recover from your abuse with some kind of civil rejoinder or, I admit it, sometimes with sarcasm at your unprovoked attacks on me.

I always admired Gmirkin's courteous and professional manner and though I fell short I did try to come some way to imitating him. But you even spoke ill of him after he left here, too.

If you have further points to make about our personal discussions then I do ask you to send them PM and keep this space for discussing the issues.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by neilgodfrey »

Secret Alias wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:08 am Really. So you're the truth seeker and we're the partisans.
Then prove you are also a "truth seeker" and not "partisan" by addressing the arguments in a scholarly manner and stop ridiculing them and abusing the person making arguments you disagree with.
StephenGoranson
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by StephenGoranson »

Above, RE Gmirkin was quoted as writing that, in the 270s, a Platonic constitution "succeeded exactly."
The Plato as interpreted by REG program was that differing views would disappear.
But neither thing happened.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by neilgodfrey »

StephenGoranson wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:08 am Above, RE Gmirkin was quoted as writing that, in the 270s, a Platonic constitution "succeeded exactly."
The Plato as interpreted by REG program was that differing views would disappear.
But neither thing happened.
Of course it did. In what way can anyone say it did not happen?
StephenGoranson
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Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by StephenGoranson »

To assert "Of course it did [happen]" is problematic, given that:

a) there are two "things" mentioned above, not one. (Read more carefully, please.)
b) even neilgodfrey yourself/himself elsewhere on this forum expressed some doubt about the first thing, as long as others accept his fundamentalist Hellenistic-origin belief.
c) dismissal of pre-270s writings of Torah portions as exclusively evidence of oral tradition is a catch 22.
d) the "In what way can anyone say it did not happen?" is a non sequitur. Plus, I can say it.
What if I claimed, only for the sake of comparison, instead of the REG claim, that Torah was first written in the 240s in Cyprus, and then wrote "In what way can anyone say it did not happen?" Such would be silly (and also did not happen),
and would be oblivious to the fact that the burden of proof is on any who claim that it did happen.

The so-far offered parallelomania is not proof, and, actually, by REG further extending the list of Greek writers putatively influencing the Torah writers makes his proposal even more extremely far-fetched.
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