The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
StephenGoranson
Posts: 2312
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:10 am

Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by StephenGoranson »

There may be occasions where all or nothing assertions are not the best option--such as all Torah or none. Consider a diachronic possibility? I will venture a guess that those surviving amulets are not the earliest ones made. Admittedly the word "amulet" is anachronistic. Some written words, some think, can have power. Perhaps you have heard of phylacteries/tefillin and mezzuzot?
StephenGoranson
Posts: 2312
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:10 am

Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by StephenGoranson »

A 2020 book, open access, has relevant articles:
Material Aspects of Reading in Ancient and Medieval Cultures
Materiality, Presence and Performance
Edited by: Anna Krauß , Jonas Leipziger and Friederike Schücking-Jungblut

and various Qumran publications.
ABuddhist
Posts: 1016
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:36 am

Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by ABuddhist »

StephenGoranson wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 6:27 am I will venture a guess that those surviving amulets are not the earliest ones made.
I agree, but such amulets are not necessarily associated with any written earlier scripture but with an oral traditon, as Gmirkin has shown that he is not alone in accepting.
StephenGoranson wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 6:27 am Some written words, some think, can have power. Perhaps you have heard of phylacteries/tefillin and mezzuzot?
I am aware of such beliefs, and have them as a Buddhist.

StephenGoranson wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 6:27 am Perhaps you have heard of phylacteries/tefillin and mezzuzot?
I have, and I am aware of Buddhist versions of them. But these phenomena must be evaluated in light of the scholarship, not limited to Gmirkin, linking the amulets to an oral rather than a written tradition.
ABuddhist wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:46 am
StephenGoranson wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:36 am I do not claim that two silver amulets prove that the "original Vorlage" of the Hebrew Bible, or of the full Torah section, was available at the date of said amulets. Please don't cling, cling to that illusion, ABuddhist.
Prove that I claimed that you were claiming this. As I recall, I was merely claiming that the silver amulets are not relevant to dating when the Pentateuch was written against your claims that they are relevant and that Gmirkin was wrong to link them to oral tradition rather than a written Hebrew Scripture.
You have yet to address this.
StephenGoranson
Posts: 2312
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:10 am

Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by StephenGoranson »

ABuddhist wrote, above, in part:
"I agree, but such amulets are not necessarily associated with any written earlier scripture but with an oral traditon, as Gmirkin has shown that he is not alone in accepting."

Let me draw attention to the words "not necessarily." Well, for you,
that's a step.

By the way, who might revere and trust some written words--including some poetry--more:
a) a Torah adherent or
b) Plato?
ABuddhist
Posts: 1016
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:36 am

Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by ABuddhist »

StephenGoranson wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 8:33 am Let me draw attention to the words "not necessarily." Well, for you,
that's a step.

By the way, who might revere and trust some written words--including some poetry--more:
a) a Torah adherent or
b) Plato?
Why do you regard my words "not necessarily." as a step? You were formerly the one insisting that the amulets proved that their texts were part of a written tradition and baffled when Gmirkin was locating them in an oral tradition. But then Gmirkin revealed that he is not alone in that conclusion.

As for who would revere and trust written words, I am aware that Plato's dialogues express distrust of writing, but if he had really believed such a thing sincerely, he would not have written any works. So your question has no bearing upon the origin of the Pentateuch as far as I can tell.
User avatar
neilgodfrey
Posts: 6161
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by neilgodfrey »

StephenGoranson wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:36 am where oh where, straw man slayer, did I write that there was ever ONE universally-accepted pre-270s Torah Vorlage?
Well, straw man slayer, where did I ever say you did "write that there was ever ONE universally-accepted pre-270s Torah Vorlage"? :scratch:
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by Secret Alias »

I don't think people are intimately familiar with the different versions of the material.

1. the Samaritan and Qumran versions of Exodus and Deuteronomy make it clear that Deuteronomy was written as a copy of Exodus.
2. if this is true time has to elapse between the composition of the Pentateuch and Deuteronomy
3. the LXX doesn't have these this "longer edition" so it necessarily represents a later version of the Pentateuch

How does all of this square with the Pentateuch being written in 270 CE? Have people really considered the evidence or have they just gone from the edition that is familiar to us?

There has to be time between the LXX and the Samaritan/DSS Exodus/Pentateuch
There has to be time between between the original Pentateuch and Deuteronomy (for Deuteronomy to be a copy of Exodus)

It just doesn't work. Why can't people see that? I would love to embrace some radical new theory. It just doesn't fit the evidence especially if you factor the Qumran tradition having to get out in the wilderness objecting to a rival in Jerusalem.
StephenGoranson
Posts: 2312
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:10 am

Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by StephenGoranson »

"The problem with the theory that the Pentatuech was written in Alexandria"
could be restated as more than one problem.
The problem that the claim that Torah in no written version existed before c.273 is not proven.
The problem that the claim that Torah was first written in Alexandria is not proven.
The problem that the claim that Torah was not written until after claimed influence from Plato and several other Greek writers is not proven.
ABuddhist
Posts: 1016
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:36 am

Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by ABuddhist »

StephenGoranson wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:58 pm The problem that the claim that Torah in no written version existed before c.273 is not proven.
The problem that the claim that Torah was first written in Alexandria is not proven.
The problem that the claim that Torah was not written until after claimed influence from Plato and several other Greek writers is not proven.
But nor is there definitive evidence that the Torah predates 273 BCE - although there is ambigous evidence which is interpreted in this light. Certainly, there is scholarly research not created by Gmirkin emphasizing how the Torah and the Tanakh are similar to Greek myths and Greek written texts from the Classical period. See here viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10575 for an introduction to such ideas.
StephenGoranson
Posts: 2312
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:10 am

Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria

Post by StephenGoranson »

Some parts of TaNaK were probably Greek-influenced, as I have written before. But the subject here is Torah.
Added later:
"similar" does not suffice for causation.
Post Reply