Plato and the Creation of a Classical Historian

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
Russell Gmirkin
Posts: 212
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 11:53 am

Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by Russell Gmirkin »

Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 2:56 pm We now have this list for finding the terminus ad quem for a text:

(1) from dating its author, with both:
(1) (a) source criticism regarding authorship, using external and internal evidence
(1) (b) information regarding the author, using external and internal evidence

(2) from internal evidence
(2) (a) references in the text to contemporary people and circumstances
(2) (b) incidental use of certain words and phrases (identified individually)
(2) (c) statistical analysis of the text

(3) from external evidence
(3) (a) the first quotation or other utilization of the text by some other datable work
(3) (b) the reference to an earlier quotation that has been lost but has been dated
(3) (c) references regarding when the text was composed

(4) the dating of a manuscript of the text by:
(4) (a) stratiographic analysis (via archeology)
(4) (b) re-use of manuscript on recto or verso, when the re-use can be dated
(4) (c) use of papyri in the binding or wrapping that can be dated
(4) (d) specific references in the manuscript (e.g. in the margins) that can be dated
(4) (e) paleography (human-based)
(4) (f) paleography (computer-based)
(4) (g) ink analysis
(4) (h) radiocarbon dating
I haven’t been following this discussion, nor do I intend to, since I’m rather busy wrapping up my next book for Routledge academic press. I gather my dating methods are for whatever reason a matter of controversy. The above list is a nice comprehensive survey of such techniques used in scholarship. I have found a subset of these particularly useful in my own research on the dating of the Pentateuch and other biblical texts. For those who might be interested, here’s my most recent discussion, from a peer-reviewed paper I was invited to present by the organizers of an international scholarly conference on the Septuagint translation. I will divide it into two parts due to length considerations.

Gmirkin, Russell, “The Historical Context of the LXX and its Hebrew Vorlage” in Johann Cook and Gideon R. Kotzé (eds.), The Septuagint South of Alexandria: Essays on the Greek Translations and Other Ancient Versions by the Association for the Study of the Septuagint in South Africa (LXXSA) (Supplements to Vetus Testamentum 193; Leiden: Brill, 2022), 28-49 [32-36].

3. Terminus ad quem

In Greek and Roman classical studies, a text is typically dated using source critical arguments by examining its literary relationship to other firmly dated texts in order determine to their relative sequence. For instance, if text A draws on target text B, which in turn draws upon text C, then B’s date necessarily lies sandwiched between those of the younger text A and the older text C. This process works well in a period well-populated with dated texts, such as the Greek, Hellenistic and Roman eras (Gmirkin 2006: 20-21).

Applying this tried-and-true procedure taken from classical studies, the first step is to identify other texts that draw upon the Pentateuch in order to establish the latter’s terminus ad quem or latest possible date of composition. The most prominent such text is the Septuagint translation (cf. Lemche 1993; Garbini 1988: 135-36), whose date we take as 273-269 BCE (Gmirkin 2006: 81-88). Given that the LXX is a wooden or literal translation from its Hebrew Vorlage (Tov 2015: 18-30; van der Louw 2007: 119-20), it follows that an antecedent Hebrew text existed in some form by ca. 270 BCE.

A key question is whether this terminus ad quem of ca. 270 BCE can be pushed earlier by the existence of earlier firmly dated texts that draw upon the Pentateuch. No such text exists in Hebrew. The Elephantine papyri, documents written by members of a Judean-Aramean military colony in Egypt ca. 450-400 BCE, provide compelling evidence that the Pentateuch simply was not in existence at that date. Despite being in close contact with religious authorities in Jerusalem, this community knew nothing of biblical writings, written laws, or any prominent figure from biblical traditions such as Abraham, Israel, Moses or Aaron. Work was not forbidden (and on occasion enjoined) on the seventh day (TAD D7.16.1-5) and the observance of Passover as an agricultural festival lacked any connection to Moses or the Exodus (TAD A4.1; D7.6.9-10; D7.24.5). The polytheistic residents of Elephantine had their own temple of Yah(weh), contrary to Deuteronomistic law, a temple evidently sanctioned by Jerusalem’s priests (TAD A4.7.17-19). While twentieth century scholarship struggled to reconcile the document trove at Elephantine with then-prevailing models of the early date of the Pentateuch, characterizing the practices of the Elephantine community as aberrant and heterodox, a straightforward interpretation of these textual finds is that Pentateuchal writings were completely unknown as late as ca. 400 BCE (Gmirkin 2006: 28-33; Granerød 2016). The absence of personal names drawn from biblical traditions in the Samaritan texts of Wadi Daliyeh (Cross 1963; Gropp et al 2001) reinforces the absence of external contemporary evidence for Pentateuchal writings as late as ca. 325 BCE, at the dawn of the Hellenistic Era.

Turning to writings in the early Hellenistic Era, there once existed a broad consensus that a passage in Diodorus Siculus, Library 40.3.1-8, which referred to Mosaic writings, represented an excerpt from the Aegyptiaca of Hecataeus of Abdera, written for Ptolemy I Lagus in 320-315 BCE, and seemingly demonstrating the existence of the Pentateuch decades before the LXX translation. However, I was able to show that the passage in question actually derived from Theophanes of Mytilene in 62 BCE (Gmirkin 2006: 34-67; 2014: 61-83), removing that passage as an early witness to the Pentateuch. Remarkably, the first external evidence for the Pentateuch in either Hebrew or Greek is thus the LXX. This firmly establishes a terminus ad quem of ca. 270 BCE: datable external witnesses that might establish an earlier date for the creation of the Pentateuch simply do not exist.

Last edited by Russell Gmirkin on Thu Apr 27, 2023 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Russell Gmirkin
Posts: 212
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 11:53 am

Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by Russell Gmirkin »

Gmirkin, Russell, “The Historical Context of the LXX and its Hebrew Vorlage” in Johann Cook and Gideon R. Kotzé (eds.), The Septuagint South of Alexandria: Essays on the Greek Translations and Other Ancient Versions by the Association for the Study of the Septuagint in South Africa (LXXSA) (Supplements to Vetus Testamentum 193; Leiden: Brill, 2022), 28-49 [32-36].

4. Terminus a quo

Having established a terminus ad quem of ca. 270 BCE, the next step is to establish a terminus a quo, or earliest possible date, by identifying earlier sources of known date used by the Pentateuch. Such earlier sources were once exclusively sought in the literature of the Ancient Near East, such as cuneiform flood stories or Old Babylonian and Middle Assyrian law collections. Greek literary sources were excluded from consideration by implicitly circular reasoning: since the consensus held that the Pentateuch took final form by ca. 450 BCE, there was no reason to contemplate parallels from Hellenistic literature or from earlier Greek literature unknown in the east until the Hellenistic Era. But the observation that the LXX represents the first uncontestable external evidence for the existence of the Pentateuch indicates that the Pentateuch could have drawn on Greek or Hellenistic sources written at any time prior to ca. 270 BCE, opening up significant new avenues of research.

This suggested the potential value of a close reevaluation of texts of the early Hellenistic Era which manifestly bear some relationship to the Pentateuch, such as the mention of Moses in Hecataeus of Abdera’s Aegyptiaca of ca. 320-315 BCE, as later quoted by Theophanes of Mytilene, or the second mention of Moses in Manetho’s Aegytpiaca of ca. 285 BCE. Hecataeus claimed that Moses was an Egyptian who led a peaceful colonizing expedition to the uninhabited region of Judea where he founded the capital city of Jerusalem, constructed its temple, divided the land among the colonists, and established their constitution, laws and way of life. This typical Greek foundation story contradicts the biblical account in numerous key respects and shows no acquaintance with biblical traditions, despite containing the first extra-biblical mention of a figure named Moses (Gmirkin 2006: 62-66). It would thus appear that the Pentateuch drew on Hecataeus of Abdera, rather than the reverse. Similarly, Manetho’s Aegyptiaca drew exclusively on local Egyptian traditions in his account of the wicked Hyksos’ foundation of Jerusalem and its temple and of the later regime of Osarseph the priest of Seth-Typhon in the time of Ramesses (Gmirkin 2006: 170-214). Manetho’s comment that some of his contemporaries equated Osarseph with Moses appears to reference the earlier mention of Moses in Hecataeus of Abdera’s well known Aegyptiaca, with which Manetho was acquainted, rather than Jewish biblical or oral traditions, with which he was not. The upshot of this research was that the figure of Moses as he appeared in Hecataeus of Abdera and Manetho owed nothing to the Pentateuchal account as commonly assumed. Quite the reverse, the biblical stories of Moses and the Exodus appear to draw on or respond to Hellenistic Era stories by Hecataeus and Manetho about the colonization of Judea.

Additionally, the various ancient Sumerian and Akkadian texts thought to underlie Genesis 1-11, such as the Sumerian King List and the flood story in the Gilgamesh Epic Tablet XI, had all been conveniently translated into accessible Greek ca. 180 BCE in a single text, the Babyloniaca of Berossus, which on occasion more closely resembled the biblical texts than the cuneiform originals. This suggested that the Babyloniaca was the proximate source for these Mesopotamian influences on Genesis (Gmirkin 2006: 89-139).

This and other recent research indicated that the Pentateuch drew on a variety of Greek and Hellenistic sources, including the following:

Homer: ca. 750 BCE (Brodie 2001: 447-94; Louden 2011; Kupitz 2014)
Hesiod: ca. 700 BCE (Wajdenbaum 2011; Gnuse 2017, 2020)
Plato’s Timaeus: ca. 375-350 BCE (Niesiołowski-Spanò 2007; Wajdenbaum 2011: 92-97; Gmirkin 2021 )
Plato’s Critias: ca. 375-350 BCE (Gmirkin 2021)
Plato’s Laws: ca. 350 BCE (Wajdenbaum 2011; Gmirkin 2017)
Hecataeus of Abdera: 320-315 BCE (Gmirkin 2006: 34-67; 2017: 222)
Manetho, Aegyptiaca: ca. 285 BCE (Gmirkin 2006: 170-214)
Berossus, Babyloniaca: ca. 280 BCE (Gmirkin 2006: 89-139)
Ariston: 278-276 BCE (Gmirkin 2006: 160-64)
Cleitarchus: after 278 BCE (Gmirkin 2006: 215-21, 244)

If these results are accepted, the use of these Greek sources by the Pentateuchal authors point to a date of composition no earlier than 278 BCE. In addition, the geography of the Table of Nations in Genesis 10 appears to reflect the boundaries of the Seleucids (Shem), Ptolemies (Ham) and independent regions (Japhet) in the period 278-255 BCE (Gmirkin 2006: 140-64), while some toponyms in the Exodus story suggest a likely date of 273-270 BCE (Gmirkin 2006: 222-39). These various chronological indications point to a likely date of composition of 273-272 BCE for the Pentateuch, either contemporary with or at most a couple years before the Septuagint translation of 273-269 BCE (Gmirkin 2006: 240-45).

lclapshaw
Posts: 784
Joined: Sun May 16, 2021 10:01 am

Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by lclapshaw »

Russell Gmirkin wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 2:12 am
Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 2:56 pm We now have this list for finding the terminus ad quem for a text:

(1) from dating its author, with both:
(1) (a) source criticism regarding authorship, using external and internal evidence
(1) (b) information regarding the author, using external and internal evidence

(2) from internal evidence
(2) (a) references in the text to contemporary people and circumstances
(2) (b) incidental use of certain words and phrases (identified individually)
(2) (c) statistical analysis of the text

(3) from external evidence
(3) (a) the first quotation or other utilization of the text by some other datable work
(3) (b) the reference to an earlier quotation that has been lost but has been dated
(3) (c) references regarding when the text was composed

(4) the dating of a manuscript of the text by:
(4) (a) stratiographic analysis (via archeology)
(4) (b) re-use of manuscript on recto or verso, when the re-use can be dated
(4) (c) use of papyri in the binding or wrapping that can be dated
(4) (d) specific references in the manuscript (e.g. in the margins) that can be dated
(4) (e) paleography (human-based)
(4) (f) paleography (computer-based)
(4) (g) ink analysis
(4) (h) radiocarbon dating
I haven’t been following this discussion, nor do I intend to, since I’m rather busy wrapping up my next book for Routledge academic press. I gather my dating methods are for whatever reason a matter of controversy. The above list is a nice comprehensive survey of such techniques used in scholarship. I have found a subset of these particularly useful in my own research on the dating of the Pentateuch and other biblical texts. For those who might be interested, here’s my most recent discussion, from a peer-reviewed paper I was invited to present by the organizers of an international scholarly conference on the Septuagint translation. I will divide it into two parts due to length considerations.

Gmirkin, Russell, “The Historical Context of the LXX and its Hebrew Vorlage” in Johann Cook and Gideon R. Kotzé (eds.), The Septuagint South of Alexandria: Essays on the Greek Translations and Other Ancient Versions by the Association for the Study of the Septuagint in South Africa (LXXSA) (Supplements to Vetus Testamentum 193; Leiden: Brill, 2022), 28-49 [32-36].

3. Terminus ad quem

In Greek and Roman classical studies, a text is typically dated using source critical arguments by examining its literary relationship to other firmly dated texts in order determine to their relative sequence. For instance, if text A draws on target text B, which in turn draws upon text C, then B’s date necessarily lies sandwiched between those of the younger text A and the older text C. This process works well in a period well-populated with dated texts, such as the Greek, Hellenistic and Roman eras (Gmirkin 2006: 20-21).

Applying this tried-and-true procedure taken from classical studies, the first step is to identify other texts that draw upon the Pentateuch in order to establish the latter’s terminus ad quem or latest possible date of composition. The most prominent such text is the Septuagint translation (cf. Lemche 1993; Garbini 1988: 135-36), whose date we take as 273-269 BCE (Gmirkin 2006: 81-88). Given that the LXX is a wooden or literal translation from its Hebrew Vorlage (Tov 2015: 18-30; van der Louw 2007: 119-20), it follows that an antecedent Hebrew text existed in some form by ca. 270 BCE.

A key question is whether this terminus ad quem of ca. 270 BCE can be pushed earlier by the existence of earlier firmly dated texts that draw upon the Pentateuch. No such text exists in Hebrew. The Elephantine papyri, documents written by members of a Judean-Aramean military colony in Egypt ca. 450-400 BCE, provide compelling evidence that the Pentateuch simply was not in existence at that date. Despite being in close contact with religious authorities in Jerusalem, this community knew nothing of biblical writings, written laws, or any prominent figure from biblical traditions such as Abraham, Israel, Moses or Aaron. Work was not forbidden (and on occasion enjoined) on the seventh day (TAD D7.16.1-5) and the observance of Passover as an agricultural festival lacked any connection to Moses or the Exodus (TAD A4.1; D7.6.9-10; D7.24.5). The polytheistic residents of Elephantine had their own temple of Yah(weh), contrary to Deuteronomistic law, a temple evidently sanctioned by Jerusalem’s priests (TAD A4.7.17-19). While twentieth century scholarship struggled to reconcile the document trove at Elephantine with then-prevailing models of the early date of the Pentateuch, characterizing the practices of the Elephantine community as aberrant and heterodox, a straightforward interpretation of these textual finds is that Pentateuchal writings were completely unknown as late as ca. 400 BCE (Gmirkin 2006: 28-33; Granerød 2016). The absence of personal names drawn from biblical traditions in the Samaritan texts of Wadi Daliyeh (Cross 1963; Gropp et al 2001) reinforces the absence of external contemporary evidence for Pentateuchal writings as late as ca. 325 BCE, at the dawn of the Hellenistic Era.

Turning to writings in the early Hellenistic Era, there once existed a broad consensus that a passage in Diodorus Siculus, Library 40.3.1-8, which referred to Mosaic writings, represented an excerpt from the Aegyptiaca of Hecataeus of Abdera, written for Ptolemy I Lagus in 320-315 BCE, and seemingly demonstrating the existence of the Pentateuch decades before the LXX translation. However, I was able to show that the passage in question actually derived from Theophanes of Mytilene in 62 BCE (Gmirkin 2006: 34-67; 2014: 61-83), removing that passage as an early witness to the Pentateuch. Remarkably, the first external evidence for the Pentateuch in either Hebrew or Greek is thus the LXX. This firmly establishes a terminus ad quem of ca. 270 BCE: datable external witnesses that might establish an earlier date for the creation of the Pentateuch simply do not exist.

Well, I for one, whish you would hang out here more often. :cheers:
Russell Gmirkin
Posts: 212
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 11:53 am

Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by Russell Gmirkin »

by lclapshaw » Thu Apr 27, 2023 2:35 am

[/quote]
Well, I for one, whish you would hang out here more often. :cheers:
[/quote]

Thanks. I would, if it wasn't such a troll-fest. I prefer moderated academic discussion groups.
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by Secret Alias »

Hey it's great to hear from you over here. Funny that it should happen while austendw is taking the time to consider your thesis in the "Jewish forum" (or as you would name it the "the Hellenistic misunderstanding of Plato by swarthy people" forum. He's not "trolling." He's taking your points very seriously and those of your various "boosters" (the opposite of troll I guess). Funny how you'd choose to migrate over here as austendw is ready to engage you over in the other forum.

Oh and what do I see? Your booster Neil's last two comments to austendw.

1. in the thread The Old Testament - A Hellenistic Book? "If you want me to respond to it you might like to let me know about it in some other venue. I am finding this forum a horrible, toxic, sickening place. I have more positive things to do and places to be."
2. in Is exclusive Yahwehism even plausible prior to the Hasmonaeans? "My local library does not have access to that article. Costs me $A30. Are you able to dot-point the key arguments?"

No real response from him to any of austendw's points. It's just a pattern of deflection, playing the victim, crying foul, arguing with the referee. Rinse and repeat. Everyone is equally brutal to everyone else at this forum (except Giuseppe who always manages to stay kind, caring and considerate, just being real).

So you guys don't like to engage with people when they are actually willing to take the time to consider your points of view seriously. If someone like myself sees it as "entertainment" and treats it accordingly that's bad too. So what are you looking for? Oh yes, "followers" - or "zeroes" as I call them to make your "popularity" and importance go from tens to hundreds to millions. Sorry, this "troll forum" isn't a booster forum. It's an open, fair and free discussion of ideas.

I created this thread to assess your brother in Christian studies mountainman Pete. After 20 years no followers, no "zeroes." But you don't weigh in on Pete's theory (which is the point of this thread and discussion is the point of this forum). Instead you use it as an opportunity to complain about trolls.

austendw is waiting for you to engage with him. Still no answer. Still no response to his critique of your theory. Wonder why.
Secret Alias
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Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by Secret Alias »

Why doesn't Russell discuss mountainman's theory in a who is a follower of mountainman thread? Where do we draw the line on insanity? Ignoring evidence? The mirror has two faces or better yet the two sided mirror.

Image

I didn't use the Barbra Streisand remake I know how you feel about Jews copying Gentile things.
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by Secret Alias »

And let me add, there are many different approaches to "the truth." Some people really want to understand history. For instance, my wife recently took off five months to be with her dying mother. Just quit her job. Three of her siblings (who live within 45 minutes of the hospital didn't bother to show up). They didn't ask "what was mom like at the end." They weren't interested in history. They created their own version of who their mom was. We all do I guess. But some times people prefer interpretation to facts.

The objective apprehension of truth is among the noblest things a human can (theoretically) attain.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by Peter Kirby »

Russell Gmirkin wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 2:12 am
Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 2:56 pm We now have this list for finding the terminus ad quem for a text:

(1) from dating its author, with both:
(1) (a) source criticism regarding authorship, using external and internal evidence
(1) (b) information regarding the author, using external and internal evidence

(2) from internal evidence
(2) (a) references in the text to contemporary people and circumstances
(2) (b) incidental use of certain words and phrases (identified individually)
(2) (c) statistical analysis of the text

(3) from external evidence
(3) (a) the first quotation or other utilization of the text by some other datable work
(3) (b) the reference to an earlier quotation that has been lost but has been dated
(3) (c) references regarding when the text was composed

(4) the dating of a manuscript of the text by:
(4) (a) stratiographic analysis (via archeology)
(4) (b) re-use of manuscript on recto or verso, when the re-use can be dated
(4) (c) use of papyri in the binding or wrapping that can be dated
(4) (d) specific references in the manuscript (e.g. in the margins) that can be dated
(4) (e) paleography (human-based)
(4) (f) paleography (computer-based)
(4) (g) ink analysis
(4) (h) radiocarbon dating
I haven’t been following this discussion, nor do I intend to, since I’m rather busy wrapping up my next book for Routledge academic press. I gather my dating methods are for whatever reason a matter of controversy. The above list is a nice comprehensive survey of such techniques used in scholarship. I have found a subset of these particularly useful in my own research on the dating of the Pentateuch and other biblical texts. For those who might be interested, here’s my most recent discussion, from a peer-reviewed paper I was invited to present by the organizers of an international scholarly conference on the Septuagint translation. I will divide it into two parts due to length considerations.
So you've accepted the idea that you "have found a subset of these particularly useful" and that this excuses you from going through a more complete and thorough consideration of techniques used in scholarship. I guess that is useful, in a manner of speaking. That doesn't make it particularly good scholarship. More the opposite.
Russell Gmirkin
Posts: 212
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 11:53 am

Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by Russell Gmirkin »

Peter Kirby wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 8:59 am
Russell Gmirkin wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 2:12 am
Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 2:56 pm We now have this list for finding the terminus ad quem for a text:

(1) from dating its author, with both:
(1) (a) source criticism regarding authorship, using external and internal evidence
(1) (b) information regarding the author, using external and internal evidence

(2) from internal evidence
(2) (a) references in the text to contemporary people and circumstances
(2) (b) incidental use of certain words and phrases (identified individually)
(2) (c) statistical analysis of the text

(3) from external evidence
(3) (a) the first quotation or other utilization of the text by some other datable work
(3) (b) the reference to an earlier quotation that has been lost but has been dated
(3) (c) references regarding when the text was composed

(4) the dating of a manuscript of the text by:
(4) (a) stratiographic analysis (via archeology)
(4) (b) re-use of manuscript on recto or verso, when the re-use can be dated
(4) (c) use of papyri in the binding or wrapping that can be dated
(4) (d) specific references in the manuscript (e.g. in the margins) that can be dated
(4) (e) paleography (human-based)
(4) (f) paleography (computer-based)
(4) (g) ink analysis
(4) (h) radiocarbon dating
I haven’t been following this discussion, nor do I intend to, since I’m rather busy wrapping up my next book for Routledge academic press. I gather my dating methods are for whatever reason a matter of controversy. The above list is a nice comprehensive survey of such techniques used in scholarship. I have found a subset of these particularly useful in my own research on the dating of the Pentateuch and other biblical texts. For those who might be interested, here’s my most recent discussion, from a peer-reviewed paper I was invited to present by the organizers of an international scholarly conference on the Septuagint translation. I will divide it into two parts due to length considerations.
So you've accepted the idea that you "have found a subset of these particularly useful" and that this excuses you from going through a more complete and thorough consideration of techniques used in scholarship. I guess that is useful, in a manner of speaking. That doesn't make it particularly good scholarship. More the opposite.
So actively misrepresenting and distorting what others have written into an unrecognizable parody for you to criticize is your idea of scholarship. That’s odd, because in my decades as an academic researcher well-published in journals, books and conference presentations I have always adhered to a different standard, that of making sure that any authors I discuss would always find my presentation of their ideas fair and accurate, whether or not we are in agreement.

If you care to reread my posting more thoughtfully and with less hostility, I thought my sense was pretty clear. While I am familiar with all these various considerations in dating a text, not all of them are relevant to the dating of the biblical texts. For instance, all of the points you list under (4) are important for dating a physical manuscript, such as for instance a Dead Sea Scroll or papyrus find or later biblical codex. But these are only useful in establishing a terminus ante quem for the biblical texts, and at this point no such manuscript dating pushes the date of the Pentateuch earlier than the LXX translation of ca. 270 BCE (or some would say even later).

All the other points in (1) through (3) I have used at one time or another, except for the statistical analysis of (2-c). But I get the impression you haven’t actually read my work, or you would know that.

I’m trying to figure out what makes you an authority on scholarship, since I can’t find anything you’ve published on academia.org, researchgate.net or on the internet. There are lots of Peter Kirbys around, but none appear to have made any significant contribution to history or biblical studies. Could you perhaps share your CV or academic accomplishments, other than moderating this forum?—which, I would say, weighs more on the negative side of the balance scale at this point.
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by Secret Alias »

Wow after telling Austen you don't have time to respond to his questions you found a lot of time to post here.
Sorry that I am unable to respond in any detail, since I have other pressing projects.
I guess engagement in a stupid thread about Pete the mountainman thread is a "pressing project." Funny how I think you're avoiding Austen. But what do I know, I am not a smart academic like you.

I am sure you consider me a "troll." How dare people question your theory? As I said elsewhere, you're not happy if the questions are superficial, detailed (like Austen), whatever. You just want to attract followers to your theory. Good luck.
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