David &Goliath vs Titus Manlius & the Gaul

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
John2
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Re: David &Goliath vs Titus Manlius & the Gaul

Post by John2 »

rgprice wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2023 4:11 am
I think given that there are actually two Goliath stories in the books of Samuel, clearly at least one of the stories within Samuel is a re-working of an account of Goliath. Why did one of the writers decide to offer a different version of the Goliath story? I think Cook correctly points out that the version of 1 Samuel is the re-working of the earlier version of the story in which it is Elhanan son of Jair who kills Goliath.

Now, if someone is "taking over and adapting" the story of Elhanan killing Goliath and transforming the account into a story where David does the killing, we already know than this person is taking liberty with the story and modifying it to suit their agenda. Why, then, would we not suspect this same individual from taking over adn adopting another story as well? If you're stealing a wallet from a car, why not steal some jewelry too?


This issue is more complicated than I realized yesterday, due to the parallel in 1 Chr. 20:5:

Once again there was a battle with the Philistines, and Elhanan son of Jair killed Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam.

There are various explanations for this contradiction, and if memory serves, 1 and 2 Samuel are poorly preserved (a word search for "1 and 2 Samuel" and "poorly preserved" turned up those very words here: "As all OT scholars know, the text of 1-2 Samuel is poorly preserved. Careful attention to its correction and emendation is most important" https://www.google.com/books/edition/2_ ... frontcover). And of course the DSS are no help, since the part of 2 Samuel with the relevant passage hasn't survived.

And there are some curious similarities between the words in 2 Sam. 20:19 and 1 Chr. 20:5 that make it hard to tell what's going on, as noted by Ozoliņš here:

So, was the direct object marker ͗ēt deliberately changed to “brother of” ͗ăḥî in Chronicles by a scribe in order to avoid an embarrassing contradiction? Or, instead, was this simply an accidental visual oversight, in which a scribe misread “brother of” ͗ăḥî (אחי) as the direct object marker ͗ēt (את) in Samuel? We ought to favor the second explanation for at least two reasons: (1) visually similar words are most naturally explained as accidental (not deliberate) scribal errors; (2) scribes who copied Samuel apparently were not bothered by the resulting contradiction!

https://textandcanon.org/who-really-killed-goliath/

Well, I give up on this one. Who knows? But as far as the resemblances between Livy and 2 Samuel go, I'm still leaning towards the "common theme" idea (given that Livy was educated in "forms, means, and strategies for persuading an audience" that pre-date Greco-Roman times), but I will keep my mind open to other possibilities.
AdamKvanta
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Re: David &Goliath vs Titus Manlius & the Gaul

Post by AdamKvanta »

Parallels
Interesting parallels but in my opinion both accounts (Livy and Bible) could be describing real events. I mean history tends to repeat itself and it would be strange if there were no parallels at all. So there are some similarities but not enough for me to see a dependence on one source. But let's analyze the similarities:

1) Champion warfare (single combat)
Is champion warfare in antiquity so unique? According to Wikipedia, it was quite common:
Champion warfare refers to a type of battle, most commonly found in the epic poetry and myth of ancient history, in which the outcome of the conflict is determined by single combat, an individual duel between the best soldiers ("champions") from each opposing army.
Numerous instances of champion warfare can be observed in Homer's Iliad, most notably the climactic battle between Achilles and Hector, although there are many more.
Champion warfare is a common theme in the early books of Livy's history of Rome Ab Urbe Condita (From the Founding of the City), including the story of the famous triplets of the Horatii and Curiatii families and the great champion Horatius Cocles.
More cases here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champion_warfare

2) Young vs strong
If champion warfare was not uncommon in antiquity there should be at least a few cases when an underdog beats a stronger opponent. These cases would be also more famous than others and therefore they would be written down. Let's look at some examples:
An important episode in "The Tale of Sinuhe", one of the most well-known works of Ancient Egyptian literature, concerns the protagonist – an Egyptian exile in Upper Retjenu (Canaan) – defeating a powerful opponent in single combat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_combat#Antiquity
A story very similar to that of David and Goliath appears in the Iliad, written circa 760–710 BCE, where the young Nestor fights and conquers the giant Ereuthalion. Each giant wields a distinctive weapon—an iron club in Ereuthalion's case, a massive bronze spear in Goliath's; each giant, clad in armor, comes out of the enemy's massed array to challenge all the warriors in the opposing army; in each case the seasoned warriors are afraid, and the challenge is taken up by a stripling, the youngest in his family (Nestor is the twelfth son of Neleus, David the seventh or eighth son of Jesse). In each case an older and more experienced father figure (Nestor's own father, David's patron Saul) tells the boy that he is too young and inexperienced, but in each case the young hero receives divine aid and the giant is left sprawling on the ground. Nestor, fighting on foot, then takes the chariot of his enemy, while David, on foot, takes the sword of Goliath. The enemy army then flees, the victors pursue and slaughter them and return with their bodies, and the boy-hero is acclaimed by the people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goliath#G ... the_Greeks

3) Beheading
Because of the unambiguous way in which beheading signals death, decapitation was a common practice in the ancient world, especially in the context of war.
https://www.bibleodyssey.org/passages/r ... ent-world/

Solution for 2 Samuel 21:19 and 1 Chronicle 20:5
I think 2 Samuel 21:19 and 1 Chronicle 20:5 are about the brother of Goliath. I know that there are issues:
The fourth-century BC 1 Chronicle 20:5 explains the second Goliath by saying that Elhanan "slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath", constructing the name Lahmi from the last portion of the word "Bethlehemite" ("beit-ha’lahmi"), and the King James Bible adopted this into 2 Samuel 21:18–19, but the Hebrew text at Goliath's name makes no mention of the word "brother". Most scholars dismiss the later 1 Chronicles 20:5 material as "an obvious harmonization" attempt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goliath#E ... nd_Goliath

... but I think John2 found a solution here:
... a scribe misread “brother of” ͗ăḥî (אחי) as the direct object marker ͗ēt (את) in Samuel ...
https://textandcanon.org/who-really-killed-goliath/
So the addition of the name Lahmi could be just an attempt to avoid future ambiguity between ăḥî (אחי) and ēt (את).

Historicity of Goliath
In the 2005 season, below the late 9th-century BCE destruction level, in a stratum dating to an earlier phase of the Iron Age IIA, an important inscription was found. Scratched on a shard typical of the Iron Age IIA, two non-Semitic names written in Semitic "Proto-Canaanite" letters were found. These two names, "ALWT" (אלות) and "WLT" (ולת), are etymologically similar to the name Goliath (גלית), the biblical Philistine champion who was a native of Gath.

These two name fragments might indicate that names similar to the name Goliath were in use in Philistia during the Iron Age IIA, approximately the same time as Goliath is described in the Bible. Although not proof of Goliath's existence, the ostracon provides evidence of the cultural milieu of this period. In any case, they provide a useful example of the names used by the Philistines during that time, and the earliest evidence for the use of an alphabetic writing system in the Philistine culture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gath_(city)#Goliath_shard
Tell es-Safi, the biblical Gath and traditional home of Goliath, has been the subject of extensive excavations by Israel's Bar-Ilan University. The archaeologists have established that this was one of the largest of the Philistine cities until destroyed in the ninth century BC, an event from which it never recovered. The Tell es-Safi inscription, a potsherd discovered at the site, and reliably dated to between the tenth to mid-ninth centuries BC, is inscribed with the two names ʾLWT and WLT. While the names are not directly connected with the biblical Goliath (גלית‎, GLYT), they are etymologically related and demonstrate that the name fits with the context of the late tenth- to early ninth-century BC Philistine culture. The name "Goliath" itself is non-Semitic and has been linked with the Lydian king Alyattes, which also fits the Philistine context of the biblical Goliath story. A similar name, Uliat, is also attested in Carian inscriptions. Aren Maeir, director of the excavation, comments: "Here we have very nice evidence [that] the name Goliath appearing in the Bible in the context of the story of David and Goliath… is not some later literary creation."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goliath#Goliath's_name
Previous approaches have viewed the description of Goliath as modeled on an infantry man, be it a Mycenaean warrior of the Iron Age I, a Greek hoplite of the sixth century, or something of a mix of the two. However, if he is understood as a chariot warrior, a member of the Philistine elite warrior class, there is nothing in the description of his equipment that demands a late date for the text's origin. In fact, all his gear matches well with what might be expected of an Aegean-Levantine chariot warrior of the Iron I period.
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/a ... OR41104416
rgprice
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Re: David &Goliath vs Titus Manlius & the Gaul

Post by rgprice »

The passage from the Iliad isn't really that similar to teh story of David & Goliath, only it's basic concept is. The passages from Samuel and Livy have far more specific commonalities. However, I suppose its possible that both writers independently could have worked from the Iliad and arrived at their similar narratives. But even this I somewhat doubt as they would have both made many similar decisions about how to derive accounts from the Iliad.

I'm still convinced there is some relationship here, I just don't know what it is. But I'll repeat, this is not the only surprising similarity between Deuteronomistic history and accounts of Roman history.
AdamKvanta
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Re: David &Goliath vs Titus Manlius & the Gaul

Post by AdamKvanta »

Do the passages from Samuel and Livy have far more specific commonalities than, for example, historical accounts of Lincoln and Kennedy?
Lincoln–Kennedy coincidences:
  • Both were elected to congress in '46: Lincoln was elected in 1846 from Illinois, and Kennedy was elected in 1946 from Massachusetts.
  • Both were elected to the presidency in '60: Lincoln was elected in 1860, and Kennedy was elected in 1960.
  • Both have seven letters in their last names ("Lincoln" and "Kennedy").
  • Both were concerned with civil rights.
  • Both married in their 30s to women who were in their 20s.
  • Both were shot in the head. (Lincoln and Kennedy).
  • Both of the presidents' successors were named Johnson: Lincoln was succeeded by Andrew Johnson, and Kennedy was succeeded by Lyndon B. Johnson.
  • Both were succeeded by Southerners: Andrew Johnson was from Tennessee, and Lyndon B. Johnson was from Texas.
  • Both successors were born in '08: Andrew Johnson was born December 29, 1808, and Lyndon B. Johnson was born August 27, 1908.
  • Both assassins, John Wilkes Booth and Lee Harvey Oswald, are known by their three names.
  • Each assassin's full name is composed of fifteen letters.
  • Booth and Oswald were killed before their trials.
A 1999 examination by Snopes found that the listed "coincidences are easily explained as the simple product of mere chance." In 1992, the Skeptical Inquirer ran a "Spooky Presidential Coincidences Contest." One winner found a series of sixteen similar coincidences between Kennedy and former Mexican President Álvaro Obregón. Another winner came up with similar lists for twenty-one pairs of U.S. presidents.
Gardner and others have said that it is relatively easy to find seemingly meaningful patterns relating any two people or events.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln%E ... ban_legend
rgprice
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Re: David &Goliath vs Titus Manlius & the Gaul

Post by rgprice »

@AdamKvanta This is a fallacy. Identifying all possible similarities between two events or individuals is not the same thing as identifying similarities between narratives or accounts of events.

I mean I can list out thousands of similarities between any two people.

Person A & person B:
Both breath air
Both have legs
Both are human
Both eat food
Both drink water
etc., etc., etc.
AdamKvanta
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Re: David &Goliath vs Titus Manlius & the Gaul

Post by AdamKvanta »

@rgprice I see the formal difference between the events and the narratives of those events but I think this difference doesn't really matter in our case. My point was about statistical significance of similarities. In both cases (events and narratives of events) we can enumerate many statistically insignificant elements. For example, in many narratives, people are walking, talking, fighting, etc. but these are insignificant similarities.

Moreover, there are many written accounts about the assassination of Lincoln and Kennedy so I assume they probably contain many of the similarities I listed in my previous post. In that case, there would be no formal difference.

So, in the case of Samuel and Livy, we see some statistically significant similarities (champion warfare, young vs. old, beheading, and some more) but I don't think that is enough to claim literary dependence. And so far I haven't seen an argument as to why both accounts can't be about real events, that can naturally have some statistically significant similarities like in the Lincoln–Kennedy case.
rgprice
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Re: David &Goliath vs Titus Manlius & the Gaul

Post by rgprice »

I'm not saying direct literary dependence necessarily. I'm saying there seems to be influence. Could be indirect. It could be the Roman narrative influenced by Samuel. Here is the passage from the Iliad.

Would, by father Jove, Minerva, and Apollo, that I were still young and strong as when the Pylians and Arcadians were gathered in fight by the rapid river Celadon under the walls of Pheia, and round about the waters of the river Iardanus. The godlike hero Ereuthalion stood forward as their champion, with the armour of King Areithous upon his shoulders- Areithous whom men and women had surnamed 'the Mace-man,' because he fought neither with bow nor spear, but broke the battalions of the foe with his iron mace. Lycurgus killed him, not in fair fight, but by entrapping him in a narrow way where his mace served him in no stead; for Lycurgus was too quick for him and speared him through the middle, so he fell to earth on his back. Lycurgus then spoiled him of the armour which Mars had given him, and bore it in battle thenceforward; but when he grew old and stayed at home, he gave it to his faithful squire Ereuthalion, who in this same armour challenged the foremost men among us. The others quaked and quailed, but my high spirit bade me fight him though none other would venture; I was the youngest man of them all; but when I fought him Minerva vouchsafed me victory. He was the biggest and strongest man that ever I killed, and covered much ground as he lay sprawling upon the earth. Would that I were still young and strong as I then was, for the son of Priam would then soon find one who would face him. But you, foremost among the whole host though you be, have none of you any stomach for fighting Hector.

This contains some of the elements, but it isn't put together in the structure like Samuel and Livy. It could be that some popular story had evolved from this that was known by both writers I suppose.
AdamKvanta
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Re: David &Goliath vs Titus Manlius & the Gaul

Post by AdamKvanta »

For those who are interested in the historicity of the David & Goliath story, this video made by the Sergio & Rhoda in Israel
channel contains some information about the presumed location of the combat. From the description of the video:
Recent discoveries make it possible to pinpoint the location of the Valley of Elah, where David slew Goliath. In this incredible journey, we head to the valley for the first time in our lives. In the episode, we will answer the questions we always had about this story: Why didn’t the armies attack each other and instead resort to a man-on-man battle? How could David sling a stone so accurately and not miss? And how could the Israelites hear Goliath when they were a valley apart?

In this episode, we will explore Khirbet Qeiyafa, a fortified city on top of the hill that overlooks the Valley of Elah. This place is believed to be the Shaaraim mentioned in this Biblical account.
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