Claudius was Jewish?

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billd89
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Claudius was Jewish?

Post by billd89 »

CPJud 156 d:
Lampon to Isidoros: “I already see my death coming.”
Claudius Caesar: “Many of my friends you killed, Isidoros.”
Isidoros: “I obeyed the king then ruling [Caligula] who ordered it. Tell me yourself whom I have to accuse.”
Claudius Caesar: “You are really the son of a girl musician (μουσικῆς), Isidoros.”
Isidoros: “I am not the son of a slave nor of a girl musician, but the gymnasiarch of the glorious city Alexandria. But you are the cast-off son of the Jewess Salome.
...

Having (a) lots of Alexandrian Jewish friends, in this case, is suspect.
Then, the bomb is dropped: Claudius is called a bastard, and (b)identified as the son of a Jewess.

Judging the veracity of the charge, I accept the accusation as plausibly true, given the following:
c) crucial support from Jewish King Agrippa, and
d) the backing of a jockeying (Jewish) faction of fabulously freedmen at the center of Imperial politics, and
d) the familiarity of Claudius w/ the Jews of Egypt, and
e) the extraordinary patience/forbearance of Claudius, in dealing w/ troublesome Jews,

Ergo, Claudius was probably of Jewish descent. (And adopted?)

Anything else to add to the list?
Secret Alias
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Re: Claudius was Jewish?

Post by Secret Alias »

"Son of bitch/whore" doesn't mean you grew up in bordello. It is meaningless. Cocksucker is another one. Faggot. Homo. Etc.
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billd89
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Re: Hiding

Post by billd89 »

Yebbut. Five points, and counting...

Textbook Whataboutery:
Secret Alias wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2024 7:51 am"Son of bitch/whore" doesn't mean you grew up in bordello.
True, but 'those of Jewish descent' have often hidden their ethnic/religious identity -- and closeted "homos" (even antigay politicos) do get exposed. Oopsie!

Image

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks." Smoke, Fire, and All That, lol

Point 6: Another Salome, enmeshed in the Scandal/Trial.
And Point 7: Claudius' role in these Jewish marriages.

See Clark Hopkins, "Date of the Trial of Isidorus and Lampo before Claudius" Yale Classical Studies, Vol. 1 [1928], p.175:
A very difficult problem, brightened, however, by the gleam of scandal, is that raised by the presence of Agrippa at the trial and by the mention of Salome (according to the interpretation of Wilcken) at the end. Is the King Agrippa mentioned Agrippa I or Agrippa II, and how is Salome related to him or to Claudius? [...] it should have been brought up when Claudius first came to the throne and Agrippa I, who was directly involved, was a power at Rome. We know from Josephus25 that Agrippa I had been extremely instrumental in helping Claudius obtain the throne. With both Agrippa I and his brother Herod, later king of Chalcis, Claudius was on terms of the closest friendship. Claudius personally gave Berenice, widow of the son of Alexander the alabarch and daughter of Agrippa, to Herod as his wife and made Herod king of Chalcis. Furthermore, Josephus mentions (Ant., XIX, 277) at just this time a revolt of the Jews in Alexandria. Claudius, at the request of the kings Agrippa and Herod, sent commands to both Egypt and Syria that no harm should come to the Jews on account of the madness of Gaius, and that their former rights should be preserved. We cannot even be sure that the Salome mentioned is to be associated with Agrippa, though her Jewish origin and the presence of Agrippa point strongly to it. The son of Herod of Chalcis, by his first wife, was Aristobulus, who married Salome (daughter of Herod the Great and Elpis). Salome had been the wife of Pheroras, her cousin, and was left a widow in A.D. 34. It was probably soon after this date that she married Aristobulus. Since Herod had as yet obtained no kingdom when Claudius came to the throne, it is at least probable that Aristobulus was with his father at Rome. It is not impossible that the friendly relations of Claudius with Agrippa and Herod extended to the latter's daughterin-law. It would certainly be sufficient ground for the jibe if court gossip attributed any influence over Claudius to Salome.

'Meh, trivial'? It's Hollywood legend, bro.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Claudius was Jewish?

Post by Secret Alias »

It's easier to believe that history got someone's biological father wrong than one's biological mother.
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billd89
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↑ Non sequitur

Post by billd89 »

Did Claudius deny his biological mother was a Jewess?
Plus, there's always adoption: Very Common in the Roman Period and Imperial Households especially.

To be clear: the OP is a Question, not a conclusion. I only adopt the pretense '(imagine) it is true' to seek out any possible evidence which would support that conclusion.
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Re: Claudius was Jewish?

Post by Secret Alias »

Surely at least some of history has to be known.
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billd89
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Re: Ancestry

Post by billd89 »

In my own family, quite abit of 'ancestry stuff' (+35 relatives!) only became known after results of a commercial DNA test were posted recently. It was certainly a history unknown to all of us alive. otoh, genealogists make up sh*t all the time.

Perhaps comparable to Claudius, German Chancellor Helmut Schmidt's Jewish ancestry might never have become publicly known, either.
Secret Alias
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Re: Claudius was Jewish?

Post by Secret Alias »

So you've answered your own question. It's about you.
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Re: Claudius was Jewish?

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I don't see this is a persuasive argument for Claudius being a Jew:
Claudius Caesar: “You are really the son of a girl musician (μουσικῆς), Isidoros.”
Isidoros: “I am not the son of a slave nor of a girl musician, but the gymnasiarch of the glorious city Alexandria. But you are the cast-off son of the Jewess Salome.”
First of all. Saying "You like sucking two cocks" after someone else claims "you like sucking cocks" is hardly persuasive for the second accusation of cocksucking. In the Alexandrian material, Isidore might have been the son of a girl musician. But what follows in the tit for tat is hardly credible.
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billd89
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Re: Salome

Post by billd89 »

Salome, the Quintessential Jewish Whore

Workbook, on the popularity of S. as Jewish name
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salome_(d ... %27%20aunt.
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