Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
srd44
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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Post by srd44 »

Maximos wrote:
Mental flatliner wrote:
Maximos wrote:Here's a new book debunking the existence of Moses and the Exodus:
Since there is evidence in the archaeological record for some of the events in Exodus, and since the timing of the Exodus is verified by the evidence, and since Queen Hatshepsut herself described "the vagabonds" living in Egypt before the 15th century BC, it's an act of academic dysfunction to try to deny that the Exodus happened.

There are a lot of people who try to interpret history based on emotional response.
Never, never, never fall into this trap.

History is data devoid of emotion. You either know what happened or you don't, and if you don't, it's nothing personal.
I'm reading the book now and she quite thoroughly debunks everything you've brought up.

Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver
Maximos,

Thanks for the post. I'm curious to know what the agenda might be in making such a superfluous argument. For example, is the author trying to discredit the Mosaic codes of Ex 20-23 or Deut 12-17 by arguing that Moses didn't exist? One really need not do that to see, for example, the law code of Deut 112-27 as a product of Josiah reforms of the 7th c., in some manner.

For MentalF, who criticized me of not thinking enough -- imagine that. I see no thinking, intellectual reflection, weighing or acknowledgement of the data by him, while he ignorantly discredits scholars who have learned the proper languages and have studied the field, Finkelstein, Dever, Thompson, etc. Such arrogance and ignorance. Uncontentious ignorance (i.e., an ignorance about lacking knowledge in the first place). I'm astonished.

For a summary of the scholarly vs biblical traditions I've tried to summarize it here http://contradictionsinthebible.com/whe ... ly-happen/
Maximos
Posts: 101
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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Post by Maximos »

Hi srd44, you may assume too much, I wasn't making a "superfluous argument"; the book is nearly 600 pages and is the most comprehensive book on the subject I've ever seen and it does in fact address each of those points previously mentioned and man many more.

You are clearly interested in this subject so I would definitely recommend the book.
"...After a century of exhaustive investigation, all respectable archaeologists have given up hope of recovering any context that would make Abraham, Isaac or Jacob credible ‘historical figures.’... [A]rchaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus has similarly been discarded as a fruitless pursuit. Indeed, the overwhelming archaeological evidence today of largely indigenous origins for early Israel leaves no room for an exodus from Egypt or a 40-year pilgrimage through the Sinai wilderness. A Moses-like figure may have existed somewhere in the southern Transjordan in the mid-late 13th century B.C., where many scholars think the biblical traditions concerning the god Yahweh arose. But archaeology can do nothing to confirm such a figure as a historical personage, much less prove that he was the founder of the later Israelite religion."

- Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver, page 75, quote from Dr. Dever

The "13th century B.C." claims are thoroughly debunked in the book!

"The exodus from Egypt is unknown to history save what is written in the Hebrew Bible. Outside of the most meager of circumstantial evidence we possess nothing to substantiate the text."

- Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver, page 75, quote from Dr. Oblath

"No direct evidence [of] the Israelite sojourn in Egypt and the Exodus can be extracted from archaeology."

- Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver, page 75, quote from Dr. Finkelstein

"...the early date of Pentateuchal sources according to the Documentary Hypothesis is entirely lacking in external corroboration, since archaeological evidence, including an analysis of written finds in Judea and at Elephantine, does not support the existence of any written Pentateuchal materials prior to the third century BCE."

- Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver, page 25, quote from Russell Gmirkin

- Evidence for Moses and the Exodus?
Mental flatliner
Posts: 486
Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 9:50 am

Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Post by Mental flatliner »

Maximos wrote:
Mental flatliner wrote:
Maximos wrote:Here's a new book debunking the existence of Moses and the Exodus:
Since there is evidence in the archaeological record for some of the events in Exodus, and since the timing of the Exodus is verified by the evidence, and since Queen Hatshepsut herself described "the vagabonds" living in Egypt before the 15th century BC, it's an act of academic dysfunction to try to deny that the Exodus happened.

There are a lot of people who try to interpret history based on emotional response.
Never, never, never fall into this trap.

History is data devoid of emotion. You either know what happened or you don't, and if you don't, it's nothing personal.
I'm reading the book now and she quite thoroughly debunks everything you've brought up.

Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver
Your first clue should have been the overt bias in the act of "debunking".
Historians who show bias are not qualified to analyze and write histories, much less debunk anything.
As a reader, if you had any level of education beyond 9th grade, you'd have noticed the bias and questioned the book.

I'll make a prediction: your book tells you that Ramses II was the Exodus pharaoh, and you don't know enough about the Bronze Age, the Bible, or the last 100 years of Ramesside archaeology to know better.

(Yes, I'm taking bets. All wagers welcome.)
srd44
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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Post by srd44 »

Maximos wrote:Hi srd44, you may assume too much, I wasn't making a "superfluous argument"; the book is nearly 600 pages and is the most comprehensive book on the subject I've ever seen and it does in fact address each of those points previously mentioned and man many more.

You are clearly interested in this subject so I would definitely recommend the book.
I'm not sure. The question seems like a moot point. Whether Moses existed or not, how does this effect our understanding of the Torah?

From the excerpts you quoted it seems like the author is confounding to different queries: Did the/an Exodus happen and Did Moses exist. The two are not related significantly unless you're holding onto a literal-historical read. Second, it's easier, indeed taken as fact now by eminent archaeologists in the field---Dever, Finkelstein, Milgrom, Thompson, etc.---that the exodus did not happen, and add extra-biblical literature of the ANE and the case is extremely convincing. So disproving Moses existence is not required to disprove the exodus. Yea?
Maximos
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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Post by Maximos »

Mental flatliner wrote:Your first clue should have been the overt bias in the act of "debunking".
Historians who show bias are not qualified to analyze and write histories, much less debunk anything.
As a reader, if you had any level of education beyond 9th grade, you'd have noticed the bias and questioned the book.

I'll make a prediction: your book tells you that Ramses II was the Exodus pharaoh, and you don't know enough about the Bronze Age, the Bible, or the last 100 years of Ramesside archaeology to know better.

(Yes, I'm taking bets. All wagers welcome.)
Mental flatliner comes off as a flaming troll to me so, I'll ignore him.
ficino
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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Post by ficino »

MF may want to say that you lack spine, Maximos, and that you lack the skill to engage him. But, like you, I think I'll also ignore. Life is short, and much awaits doing.
Mental flatliner
Posts: 486
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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Post by Mental flatliner »

ficino wrote:MF may want to say that you lack spine, Maximos, and that you lack the skill to engage him. But, like you, I think I'll also ignore. Life is short, and much awaits doing.
That's right. Why bother with people who can educate or challenge you?

(Of course, one might ask why you're even in a public forum if you're intolerant of other views? Surely these places are very uncomfortable for you?)
Mental flatliner
Posts: 486
Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 9:50 am

Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Post by Mental flatliner »

Maximos wrote:
Mental flatliner wrote:Your first clue should have been the overt bias in the act of "debunking".
Historians who show bias are not qualified to analyze and write histories, much less debunk anything.
As a reader, if you had any level of education beyond 9th grade, you'd have noticed the bias and questioned the book.

I'll make a prediction: your book tells you that Ramses II was the Exodus pharaoh, and you don't know enough about the Bronze Age, the Bible, or the last 100 years of Ramesside archaeology to know better.

(Yes, I'm taking bets. All wagers welcome.)
Mental flatliner comes off as a flaming troll to me so, I'll ignore him.
I could be wrong.

Maybe you have only mental capacity enough for one book at a time.
Maximos
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:04 am

Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Post by Maximos »

srd44 wrote:
Maximos wrote:Hi srd44, you may assume too much, I wasn't making a "superfluous argument"; the book is nearly 600 pages and is the most comprehensive book on the subject I've ever seen and it does in fact address each of those points previously mentioned and man many more.

You are clearly interested in this subject so I would definitely recommend the book.
I'm not sure. The question seems like a moot point. Whether Moses existed or not, how does this effect our understanding of the Torah?

From the excerpts you quoted it seems like the author is confounding to different queries: Did the/an Exodus happen and Did Moses exist. The two are not related significantly unless you're holding onto a literal-historical read. Second, it's easier, indeed taken as fact now by eminent archaeologists in the field---Dever, Finkelstein, Milgrom, Thompson, etc.---that the exodus did not happen, and add extra-biblical literature of the ANE and the case is extremely convincing. So disproving Moses existence is not required to disprove the exodus. Yea?
WTF? stop hypocritically doing exactly what you're falsely accusing me of eg., "superfluous argument" and "confounding to(sic) different queries." Maybe you're not actually interested in this topic after all.

1. Inquiring into whether or not Moses existed is not a "moot point." If Moses never existed, then, the Exodus could never possibly have happened as described in the bible. Attempting to claim they're not related is pathetically dumb &/or disingenuous.

2. The author has also examined practically every potentially related exodus separate and apart from whether Moses existed or not so, all you're doing here is insulting the author's intelligence as well as my own.

How you could possibly conflate the issues over the quotes provided by top experts on the subject is beyond me unless you're just doing it on purpose.
"...After a century of exhaustive investigation, all respectable archaeologists have given up hope of recovering any context that would make Abraham, Isaac or Jacob credible ‘historical figures.’... [A]rchaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus has similarly been discarded as a fruitless pursuit. Indeed, the overwhelming archaeological evidence today of largely indigenous origins for early Israel leaves no room for an exodus from Egypt or a 40-year pilgrimage through the Sinai wilderness. A Moses-like figure may have existed somewhere in the southern Transjordan in the mid-late 13th century B.C., where many scholars think the biblical traditions concerning the god Yahweh arose. But archaeology can do nothing to confirm such a figure as a historical personage, much less prove that he was the founder of the later Israelite religion."

- Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver, page 75, quote from Dr. Dever

The "13th century B.C." claims are thoroughly debunked in the book!

"The exodus from Egypt is unknown to history save what is written in the Hebrew Bible. Outside of the most meager of circumstantial evidence we possess nothing to substantiate the text."

- Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver, page 75, quote from Dr. Oblath

"No direct evidence [of] the Israelite sojourn in Egypt and the Exodus can be extracted from archaeology."

- Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver, page 75, quote from Dr. Finkelstein

"...the early date of Pentateuchal sources according to the Documentary Hypothesis is entirely lacking in external corroboration, since archaeological evidence, including an analysis of written finds in Judea and at Elephantine, does not support the existence of any written Pentateuchal materials prior to the third century BCE."

- Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver, page 25, quote from Russell Gmirkin

- Evidence for Moses and the Exodus?
Mental flatliner
Posts: 486
Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 9:50 am

Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Post by Mental flatliner »

Maximos wrote:"The exodus from Egypt is unknown to history save what is written in the Hebrew Bible. Outside of the most meager of circumstantial evidence we possess nothing to substantiate the text."
This is a false claim.

I have evidence for several dozen events before, during and after the Exodus demonstrating that it's unreasonable to dismiss the event.

The reason why people think it didn't happen is because they place the event in the 13th century in error, when the Bible places the event 300 years earlier. If you look in the right place, you'll find what you need.
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