Did God show his face to Moses?

[stephan happy huller]

I am not so sure you understand what I am saying. When the descendants of the Israelites were living under the rule of 'white people' - i.e. Greeks, Romans, Europeans all in succession - a cultural appropriation took place eventually where the masters (= white people) took an interest in the writings of my people and ultimately decided on 'the proper way to read' this material. This began with a 'theological' interpretation which I have argued was not as alien to my people as my people now pretend. In other words, your 'Jesus' my 'Eeshu' was a pre-existent divinity in the Israelite pantheon. The appropriation of this divinity transformed the interpretation of the Bible among my people. Yet it was likely prompted by the ruler of the Gentiles (i.e. the white ruler of all people in the Empire). The emphasis seems to be that there can be only ruler of the world (cosmocrator) and that all religions should emphasize the cosmocrator and abandon any notion of a superior 'hidden' divinity.

This Imperial interest manifests itself in various ancient testimonies during the reign of Commodus including the Samaritan records from the period. It transformed Christianity into a puzzling 'three = one' doctrine where Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are taken to be 'one power.' But it also transformed Judaism because of the pressure from the 'white man' or 'white men' ruling my people. The cosmocrator principle can be demonstrated to have been introduced into my culture undoubtedly at the prompting of the Imperial rulers.

Over the course of time, the Gentiles accepted the monarchian influence in Christianity unquestioned. Go into a Church and see the reaction to the Nicene Creed. In Israelite culture we see a reformation of the old principles with new names (Metatron etc) but the old ideas of a hidden divinity were never entirely lost on the elite.

But yes, it comes down to race. Jew and non-Jew or if you will 'white people' because it was only white people who ever ruled the Jews in this critical period where monarchian influence came over our culture. The universities continued this process of stripping the Pentateuch from their original cultural context until nowadays what passes as 'science' is really the emasculation of the native tradition. Neutering the text is still transforming the original 'thing.' You just don't see it because it was never yours to begin with. You don't know what has been compromised.

[ficino]

This thread has been pretty much hijacked. If someone wants to offer more insights about Moses in Ex. 33-34, I welcome them.

As to "white people's" alleged appropriation of Judaic texts, I suggest that those who want to discuss that topic begin their own thread.

[stephan happy huller]

No more contributions from me henceforth, I promise. Sorry for 'hijacking the thread' with 'useless content.'

[beowulf]

Relax ficino.

Ignorant foreigners have difficulty in understanding the native culture even when they try hard.
Learned aliens apply to the problem of understanding esoteric foreign cultures the full force of their Greco-Roman education, but this only gives them the illusion of understanding because their effort will replace the native culture with their ingested fabrications.

Replace the word ‘white’ by the word "Imperial- Greco-Roman-Papal domination " of the weak native Judaism and the interpretation that I have offered you follows. Moses saw the face of the friendly son man-god Jesus and Moses was threatened by his father Hashem.

Mr Huller is very perceptive and he gave you the best possible answer to your question

[Hawthorne]

It's basically the colonizer (white people) and the colonized (non-white people)--see Memmi. I don't have a problem with Huller's use of "white people" here. Even in the case of English colonization of Ireland, there's a clear "white people" and "non-white people."

[stephan happy huller]

I like Hawthorne because I think he's just in the process of moving here (southern California) and he's philosophically inclined.

In keeping with my brash persona (and my invitation to rejoin the thread) let me continue. Please white people go back to the original context of the Exodus. You guys just don't get it. You've been trained to read the text monarchically.

The term אֲחֹרָ֑י comes from a root which means 'behind.' The context is the encampment of the Israelites. Hmmmm. Think, think, think.

I guess you have to know a living Israelite or an Israelite tradition. The Samaritans understand this. Moses asks for what?

To see his glory.

What does God answer?

You can see my behind or what's behind me.

And then there is the famous 216 letter verses (Exodus 14:19 - 21) which is the name of God (see Life of Pi for a modern reference):

The angel of God who had been going ahead of the Israelite army, now moved and followed behind them; and the pillar of cloud shifted from in front of them and took up a place behind them, and it came between the army of the Egyptians and the army of Israel.

Hawthorne should know the significance of the number 216. Don't you see the request for the glory is rebuffed and instead he sees the one behind the angel who led the Israelites? The Samaritans always take there to be two powers hovering above the Israelites:

The cloud and the fire will lead the way in front of you, and your descendants are become your bearers. After the passing of a hundred and forty years buried in the land of Egypt — now after all these years you are going to ascend to the land ...

Hawthorne's cool though.

This part of Marqe is the oldest written in very ancient Aramaic.

[stephan happy huller]

The Cloud glorified him seven times: the first of these seven was wherever his feet walked the cloud preceded him; when he led Israel out of Egypt as he said "And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of cloud" (Ex xiii.21). Such was the status of the great prophet Moses! Who can mention even a little of his glories? The cloud shone before him and there was manifested to him a mighty wonder within it, for it was not the cloud's normal function to shine, but rather its normal function was to be dark. Through this great prophet Moses it both illuminated and darkened; so he said "And there was the cloud, the darkness, and it lit up the night" (Ex. xiv. 30). When the Man Moses saw this event in the sea (cf. 1 Cor 10:2) for it [the glory] was illuminating all the beloved and darkening the enemies, he praised his Lord, the doer of wonders and miracles, saying 'Who is like Thee, O Lord, among the gods?' (Ex. xv. 11 Targ).

Exalted for ever is this holy prophet, to whom the Lord of divinity said "Lo I am coming to speak with you and may also believe you for ever" (Ex. xix. 9). Great was the morning of Mount Sinai, the morning of the third day, in which exceedingly great tremblings were manifest - hosts and powers and foundations and angels, thunderings and lightnings, lights and fire blazing to the heart of heaven, the cloud of which we have just spoken, by reason of the great prophet Moses, the Man of God. He dwelt on Mount Sinai and the Lord called to Moses with great might and Moses went up; He addressed him face to face. There the cloud glorified him. When his Lord came to him in it, He made him to hear the voice calling from the midst of the fire - "I am the Lord your God" (Ex xx.2; Targ). The cloud covered him at the time when he was told "And I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by" (Ex. xxxiii.22).

The powers supported him, the forces comforted him, the Glory came to meet him; the great Lord descended in the cloud and stood with him and proclaimed the Ten Words (Ex. xx) with the mouth of divinity. The Lord's peace be upon Moses the Man, who achieved a high degree which no other man has possessed (lit. 'sat')

When the great prophet Moses erected the Sanctuary, the cloud covered all that he had made, as he said, "Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting" (Ex. xl.34), and the Glory of the Lord dwelt within the veil, and the cloud abode on the Sanctuary many days. At the time when he says, "Arise O Lord" (Num. x. 35) and "Return, O Lord" (Num. x 36) the peace of the Lord be upon him who saw such greatness! There has not arisen and never will arise his like.

At the time God said to him "Come up to me on the mountain" (Deut x.1 Targ) when he went up to Him and the cloud covered him for six days, his body was holy and holiness was (thereby) increased. He ascended from human status to that of the angels. He was making supplication during the six days and prostrating before the King of all kings; he saw the Sanctuary of the Unseen spread out in the fire within the cloud. He called on the seventh day from the midst of the cloud and he saw the ranks of the angels in their array. He descended from the mountain with great might - none like it! [Marqe Mimar Marqe Book V.3]

[stephan happy huller]

another example from Marqe:

The death of Moses brought an end to the unique gifts which had enriched Israel's life : The pillar of cloud which went before him has been removed and will never be seen again. The pillar of fire which shone by night and day will not appear ever again.

and yet another:

It was as though mercy said to them, "I will not shun you, but I will glorify you whither you go. The pillar of cloud will magnify your camps, so that no blemish will be seen in you. The pillar of fire will shine on them, that every spy may be discovered among them. The angels too will go with them, destroying the evil ones who would oppose them. The great glory will fight for them and manifest their greatness among all the nations

and yet another:

In Rameses they made sacrifice and they journeyed to Succoth. They sought to leave it, but were unable. The pillar of cloud and the pillar of fire had stopped in front of them, so that they could not get away from the outskirts of Succoth. Moses and Aaron were watching afraid, and all the congregation were in consternation, wondering what was the meaning of this strange matter. Moses said to Aaron, "I believe some vile deed has been done in the congregation."

"Let us call the Elders," they said to one another, "That we may enquire into this happening." The Elders came to Moses and Aaron, their minds full of alarm. (Moses said to them) "Go in peace, O Elders of the congregation, and enquire of every tribe what is the meaning of this strange event. I do not believe that the sorcerers are able with their sorcery to spellbind the sons of the Oath (i.e. the children of Jacob). This is but something we do not yet understand. Nevertheless the truth is near; it will be revealed in good time."

The Elders went off separately among the congregation and began to question every single tribe. When they shouted to the tribe of Asher, Serah came out of them at once (and said), "You have (done) nothing wrong. I shall explain to you what the meaning of this strange event is."

They put their trust in her then and brought her to the great prophet Moses. She stood before him - and he was like the moon in its fullness - and she said, "Greetings to you, Moses. O most glorious of men, hear from me about this matter about which you enquire."

Praise to those who illumine the blind!

"You would have forgotten him, had not the pillar of cloud and the pillar of fire stopped still. You would have gone forth and he would have been left behind in Egypt. I remember the day on which he died, when he bound all the people by oath to go up with their leaders from here."

The great prophet Moses said to her, "Blessed are you, Serah, most enlightened of women. From today onwards your greatness will be recounted!"

Declaration was made among the congregation that they were told, "Joseph is going to leave here with us."

Serah went away, the whole tribe of Ephraim round about her. Moses and Aaron followed them, till they reached the place where he was buried. She stopped there and they uncovered the ark and lifted it up there and then. Serah left Moses and Aaron. The great prophet Moses opened the ark with his right hand. Prostrating himself on it, he kissed it. He wept and began at that very moment to eulogize him. He said, "Your spirit is very pleasing, O most honoured of the household of his father."

All the congregation stood eulogizing him and saying, "Your spirit is pleasing, O Joseph, patron of freedom." The great prophet Moses raised his voice and said to him, "O Joseph your spirit knows that you will be borne by the hands of me and six hundred thousand who extol you. The cloud and the fire will lead the way in front of you, and your descendants will become your bearers. After the passing of a hundred and forty years buried in the land of Egypt - now after all these years your are going to ascend to the land which was apportioned to you. Your spirit is pleasing, O Fruitful Bough (Gen. xlix. 22), O Joseph the king who was vested with freedom, for whom was wrought mighty and magnificent greatness, as well as glory and praise both during your life nad after your death. In your lifetime you were praised with salutations, and the sons of two wives made obeisance to you. After your death you are praised even more than then.

When the great prophet Moses stopped eulogizing him, he said to the house of Ephraim, "You will carry him."

Joshua went in front and carried him. He called out and said, "Your spirit is pleasing, O Father, most honoured of his father's house." As soon as he was lifted up by his children the cloud and the fire went before them.

[stephan happy huller]

I think the distinction between 'the image' and 'the likeness' of God of God is paralleled by the pillar of cloud and the pillar of fire.