book of enoch

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
Robert Tulip
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Re: book of enoch

Post by Robert Tulip »

Hi DCH, thank you for the references. I am not sure what you mean though by saying I "may be mixing apples with oranges", and why you would make this comment without any specific reference. Do you think the metal discussion in Enoch is not compatible with the eschatology? They seem to support each other well to me. I can well imagine that Christians would not like the Gnostic and cosmic content of Enoch, so I hope readers will not use your comment as encouragement not to analyse Enoch. My sense is that the Ethiopic Enoch is largely theologically coherent, despite the minor calendrical differences you mention, and that the cosmic and prophetic ideas in it help to place Biblical ideas in a much more coherent context.
beowulf
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Re: book of enoch

Post by beowulf »

“largely theologically coherent!” is such an odd expression!!!
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stephan happy huller
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Re: book of enoch

Post by stephan happy huller »

My sense is that the Ethiopic Enoch is largely theologically coherent
Really? I wonder why that is! Once again you are merely trying to impose an interpretation onto the text so it is your interpretation - not the text - which you are seeing. Anyone with two eyes and an open mind can see that Enoch is a hodgepodge of texts. As such there is either something wrong with your eyes or your brain or both.
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Robert Tulip
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Re: book of enoch

Post by Robert Tulip »

I enjoyed reading Enoch. Its morality and cosmology seem to me significantly better than orthodox tradition, and I can well imagine why all copies were hunted down and burnt to suppress its Gnostic naturalism. Calling Enoch a hodgepodge looks very superficial, a pedantic failure to engage with content. I don't see what is odd about saying that allegorical writings are largely coherent. It means there is a uniting thread running through them, which in the case of Enoch is an accurate eschatology of fall and redemption centred on messianic prophecy.
beowulf
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Re: book of enoch

Post by beowulf »

Certain themes in Judaism have been treated by Jewish authors and sages as pre-existent in the sense that they were created in the sixth day of Genesis. Among them they mentioned the Torah, Repentance, the Garden of Eden and Gehenna, God’s Throne of Glory, the Fathers, Israel, the Temple and the Messiah.

The Messiah first appears as pre-existent in the First Book of Enoch which was originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic about 150 B.C.E From that period on, the concept of the Messiah who was created in the six days of creation, or even prior to them or who was born at variously stated subsequent dates and was then hidden to await his time, became a standard feature of jewish messianic eschatology.


The concept of the pre-existence of the Messiah accords with the general Talmudic view which holds that “The Holy One, blessed be He, prepares the remedy before the wound” ( B.Meg. 13b) .
The names by which the Messiah is called are revealing. In the first book of Enoch he is called, first of all, “Head of Days”, an epithet alluding to his pre-existence. In the same source he is also called “Son of Man, an old biblical appellation heavy with theosophical symbolism...


In any case this multiplicity of names indicates one thing very clearly: The image of the Messiah was very much in the forefront of rabbinical- and undoubtedly also popular- thought from the second century BCE on.


The earliest Biblical figure who in later literature was endowed with a superman Messianic character is Enoch, about whom it is said in Genesis (5:24) “that he walked with God, and he was no more, for God took him.” This brief enigmatic statement sufficed to turn Enoch into a superhuman figure: after his translation he became Metatron, the chief of all angels, and according to the book of Enoch (which was preserved in Ethiopic), he became the Messiah.


The Messiah Texts
Raphael Patai
Wayne State University Press, Detroit. 1979
ISBN 9780814318508
Chapters 2 and 3


The story we read in the Gospels is as Jewish as it can be.
semiopen2
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Did Enoch write the Book of Enoch?

Post by semiopen2 »

I have one Enoch anecdote - which I will try not to repeat too often...

I had a Catholic colleague at work who was an agnostic. One day he began expounding on the book of Enoch which he said was very unusual because it was written in the first person. To keep the conversation going I made what I thought was a safe comment that whether it was in the first person or not, Enoch (or Methuselah I suppose) was certainly not the author. I was stunned when my friend totally disagreed with me, not only for the absurdity of this, but because he didn't even believe in God.

Anyway, this is an example of a book that even a deeply religious person (but educated which hopefully isn't a contradiction) would agree was not written by the purported author. I'm not sure about the Christian Canon but no book like this exists in the Jewish Canon.
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A_Nony_Mouse
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Re: book of enoch

Post by A_Nony_Mouse »

richard allan ritter wrote:see "Jesus and the Book of Enoch" by Richard Allan Ritter (jimbo)
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