Keturah & Atlantis

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Ethan
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Keturah & Atlantis

Post by Ethan »


Josephus Antiquities of the Jews 1.238
ABRAHAM after this married Keturah, by whom six sons were born to him, men of courage, and of sagacious minds: Zambran, and Jazar, and Madan, and Madian, and Josabak, and Sous. Now the sons of Sous were Sabathan and Dadan. The sons of Dadan were Latusim, and Assur,

It is related of this Ophren, that he made war against Libya, and took it, and that his grandchildren, when they inhabited it, called it (from his name) Africa.

Cleodemus the prophet
born to Abraham by Keturah: nay, he names three of them, Apher, and Surim, and Japhran. That from Surim was the land of Assyria denominated; and that from the other two (Apher and Japbran) the country of Africa took its name, because these men were auxiliaries to Hercules, when he fought against Libya and Antaeus; and that Hercules married Aphra's daughter, and of her he begat a son, Diodorus; and that Sophon was his son, from whom that barbarous people called Sophacians were denominated."

According to Josephus, Africa gets his name from Epher, son of Midian, son of Keturah. This is not Africa (the continent) but the country. of Carthage.

But the Romans received the name Africa from the Carthaginians as designating their country. In fact rendering the name Africa in Phoenician would be ברק, minus the vowels and Latin F and C interchange with ב and ק thus Africa = Barca. Thus Josephus is trying to imply that the Carthaginians are descendants of Keturah & Abraham.

Josephus mention of Sophon resembles Syphax a king of the ancient Numidian and Sophonisba, a Carthaginian noblewoman who lived during the Second Punic War, and the daughter of Hasdrubal Gisco.

"Numidian" and "Midian" are similar.
מדין/μεσημβρινός belonging to the noon-tide, southern

The country of Carthage was also known as Atarantes that the Greeks call
Atlantes from the name Atlas. Atar resembles קטר and ק sometimes exchanges with א. Thus אטר < קטר > Αταρ > Ατρα > Άτλα and the verb הקטיר is the homologue of θυμιάζω = θυμιάω; to burn so as to produce smoke, burn.

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Last edited by Ethan on Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Japhethite
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Re: Keturah & Atlantis

Post by Japhethite »

Hoeh's Compendium of History also mentions
Ephah & Epher (Bible) or Ephas & Ophren/Africa (Josephus) or Afer/Apher & Japhran (Polyhistor) or Apher & Japbran/Africa/Aphra (Cleodemus) or Hesperus & Atlas/Italus (Spanish) 2 generals/captains/auxiliaries of Hercules when he fought against Libya & Antaeus.

I doubt the reliability of Josephus' match of the biblical and Classical persons.
Hercules & Apher & Japbran vs Libya & Antaeus is similar to Athens vs Atlantis, but Atlantis matches Libya/Antaeus not Hercules and Athens matches Hercules not Libya/Antaeus. (Though Atlantis is also linked with the Pillars of Hercules.)
The Atlanteans and Sea Peoples were in Libya.
Tiahuanaco matches Atlantis capital city, and Antaeus possibly resembles the Andes.
Hercules vs Antaios/Antaeus has been related to Shu vs Antwey (Anti/Anty/Nemty?) Shu is equated sometimes with Hercules, though sometimes with Atlas.

Japhran does resemble Yafran in nw Libya.
Apher/Africa perhaps resembles Avaris of the Hyksos.
Names similar to Africa in the bible include Havilah, Ophir.
There is a Berber goddess Afrika though (and a god Ifru).
Some suggest its from Arabic 'afar "earth, dust", or Berber ifir "cave", or Latin aprica/apricity "sunny" or Greek aprike "free from cold", or africus "south wind" or "rainy wind", or Phoenician ... "ear of corn", or Phoenician pharikia "land of fruit", or Phoenician faraqa "separation, disapora", or Indian apara "after, west".
There is a Berber tribe named Afarik or Aourigha.
Af-Ra was an Egyptian god.

Numidian can't match Midian because the -ian in Numidian is a added suffix and not part of the root. Numidia is said to be source of Nomad.

The Atarantes could be Atlantean colonists but Atlantis can't be in north Africa because it conflicts with a number of details in the Atlantis Account & some other secondary Atlantis sources like Diodorus Siculus. Also Atlantis was only the Greek translation synonym of Egyptian translation syonym of Atlantean name so Atlantis might not have any actual match for the name Atlas/Atlantis. The Atlas mountains in farthest north-west Africa are analogous to the Andes in western South America.

See these threads for candidates for Atlantis in the bible:
http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7212
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/i ... rdseen#new
yakovzutolmai
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Re: Keturah & Atlantis

Post by yakovzutolmai »

Ethan wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:05 pm The country of Carthage was also known as Atarantes that the Greeks call
Atlantes from the name Atlas. Atar resembles קטר and ק sometimes exchanges with א. Thus אטר < קטר > Αταρ > Ατρα > Άτλα and the verb הקטיר is the homologue of θυμιάζω = θυμιάω; to burn so as to produce smoke, burn.
Isn't Atlantos a loan word into Greek, with the original root being "tl". If it's Semitic, then wouldn't this have the same meaning as "El Shaddai". In other words, the cosmic mountain which upholds the celestial dome? Atlas is also associated with the world tree surrounded by the serpent Lodan (Lotan?).

The Phoenicians had Ieoud as the world pillar, which seems to be where we get Ieuo/Yaw. I have thought, this god whose body supports the firmament and serves as the celestial pole would likely have power over the gates of the firmament, and therefore be connected to the source of all waters. This would connect him to Yam and his Lotan (Leviathan).

So we have Atlas and Poseidon as patrons of Atlantis, and if Atlantis is connected to Punic culture, then we see in the Phoenician myth the origin of this god.

???
Japhethite
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Re: Keturah & Atlantis

Post by Japhethite »

Not sure if your "Atlantos" is meaning/referring the name Atlas/Atlantis or the name Atarantes or "Atlantes".
Atlantis' name is from Atlas (Greek god & mountain) whose name is supposed to mean "struggle" as in "athletics".
It is not at all certain that "Atlantis" had any association with a name like Atlas/Atlantis or Poseidon since the Atlantis Account says the Atlantean names were translated into Egyptian names and the Egyptian names translated into Greek names.
It is not certain that there is any definite link of the African Atarantes with Atlantis, though Atlanteans did conquer Libya upto Egypt.
If the nw African Atarantes are named from Mt Atlas then their name would have the same origin as Atlas & Atlantis.
The Greek Atlas has various possible origins including Atarpi/Adapa/Adamu, Atrahasis, Etana, Aranzah(as) (Hittite), Alalus (Hittite), Atar (Persian), Atri or Atharvan (Hindu), Atl/Atonatiuh (Aztec), Italus, Ararat, Altai/Altay, Allah, Otlas/Tlas/Uaznes (2nd dyn, Egypt), Adam, Andes, Aztlan/Aztec, Atli/Atilla (Eddaic/Germanic/Hunnish), Tiras (Genesis 10), Tubal (Genesis 10), Tilla, Sad-El (Phoenician), Ananta?
Tl/t/l and nt names are known in Hittite and Aztec.

Baal versus Yamm could possibly be connected with the Atlanteans or Sea Peoples, though it could also/alternatively be connected with the Flood or the Red Sea parting. Yamm might match Yhwh with a m/w interchange (compare Tiamat/Tiawath, Yama).
yakovzutolmai
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Re: Keturah & Atlantis

Post by yakovzutolmai »

This is wikipedia, but the source is cited:
The etymology of the name Atlas is uncertain. Virgil took pleasure in translating etymologies of Greek names by combining them with adjectives that explained them: for Atlas his adjective is durus, "hard, enduring",[10] which suggested to George Doig[11] that Virgil was aware of the Greek τλῆναι "to endure"; Doig offers the further possibility that Virgil was aware of Strabo's remark that the native North African name for this mountain was Douris. Since the Atlas mountains rise in the region inhabited by Berbers, it has been suggested that the name might be taken from one of the Berber, specifically ádrār 'mountain'.[12]

Traditionally historical linguists etymologize the Ancient Greek word Ἄτλας (genitive: Ἄτλαντος) as comprised from copulative α- and the Proto-Indo-European root *telh₂- 'to uphold, support' (whence also τλῆναι), and which was later reshaped to an nt-stem.[13] However, Robert S. P. Beekes argues that it cannot be expected that this ancient Titan carries an Indo-European name, and that the word is of Pre-Greek origin, and such words often end in -ant.[13]
So, if Tel is Semitic and no European, then it has a similar meaning to "Shaddai" in "El Shaddai". It's not mountain, but as an abstract meaning it refers to raised Earth.

That was where I drew this from.
Japhethite
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Re: Keturah & Atlantis

Post by Japhethite »

Which came first the Greek being Atlas or the mountain in nw Africa? I would have thought that the mountains was named from the being rather than the being from the mountains. Unless the Greeks conflated similar sounding/looking names or similar/synonymous meanings. And if the being came first then his name is maybe unlikely to only come from a mere Greek or (P)IE or Pre-Greek word (as opposed to coming from a name/god), and it is maybe doubtful that the A- was not original.
Berbers are Hamite not Semitic, though "Hamite" is just an arbitrary/casual grouping of some Hamito-Semitic/Afro-Asiatic languages.
Atlas is "Shu" in Egyptian, "Ru" in Polynesian.
The Atlas world pillar/tree motif is prominent in Peruvian pictures, sometimes even rising from concentric circles, which is as good as having the name Atlantis in records.
I'm not seeing much link with Keturah or El or Shaddai. Though the bible does have similar world mountain/tree/pillar/gates, and though Ieoud "world pillar" and El "god" or "strong" & Shaddai "almighty" & storm-clouds god is similar to athlos "struggle" and mountain(s) holding up earth &/or heaven/sky, but they are just analogous from common original not allied religion. (I've not previously seen Ieoud as world pillar, what sources say that?) There is Sad-El dwelling of El in Phoenician/Ugaritic/Canaanite similar to Dilmun and Eden. Some sources do say Greek and Hebrew languages have some similarities.
Ethan
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Re: Keturah & Atlantis

Post by Ethan »

yakovzutolmai wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:50 pm This is wikipedia, but the source is cited:
The etymology of the name Atlas is uncertain. Virgil took pleasure in translating etymologies of Greek names by combining them with adjectives that explained them: for Atlas his adjective is durus, "hard, enduring",[10] which suggested to George Doig[11] that Virgil was aware of the Greek τλῆναι "to endure"; Doig offers the further possibility that Virgil was aware of Strabo's remark that the native North African name for this mountain was Douris. Since the Atlas mountains rise in the region inhabited by Berbers, it has been suggested that the name might be taken from one of the Berber, specifically ádrār 'mountain'.[12]

Traditionally historical linguists etymologize the Ancient Greek word Ἄτλας (genitive: Ἄτλαντος) as comprised from copulative α- and the Proto-Indo-European root *telh₂- 'to uphold, support' (whence also τλῆναι), and which was later reshaped to an nt-stem.[13] However, Robert S. P. Beekes argues that it cannot be expected that this ancient Titan carries an Indo-European name, and that the word is of Pre-Greek origin, and such words often end in -ant.[13]
So, if Tel is Semitic and no European, then it has a similar meaning to "Shaddai" in "El Shaddai". It's not mountain, but as an abstract meaning it refers to raised Earth.

That was where I drew this from.
El Shaddai [אל שדי] is just a Phoenician rendering of ό Ζεύς (Zeus), the El being the definite article.

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