Plato’s Timaeus and the Biblical Creation Accounts [Gmirkin]

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
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billd89
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Re: More than That

Post by billd89 »

No, not "partly".

The Moses Myth is fundamentally constructed out of Egyptian Myth, so it is NOT originating from Samaria. But Moses (the mythic character) IS an Egyptian - that's not even debatable.

Whether the 'Garden of Eden' story is from Egypt (Siriad/Sethrum), or Lebanon, or Iraq, if it's 'Platonic' then it's most likely 'Egyptian'. They say "Plato studied in Egypt for 13 years" but there's nothing that suggests he ever went to Iraq either.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Plato’s Timaeus and the Biblical Creation Accounts [Gmirkin]

Post by Secret Alias »

Whatever. You have this way of getting carried away with an enthusiasm for your own musings. I don't think you understand what the religion of the Pentateuch is so what's the point of listening to what you have to say. The Pentateuch is about the land of Israel. That's what the text is about. It's about what is believed to be holy soil. God lives in/on/above the holy mountain. Not sure you can trace any of this to Egypt. But I am sure you will try ...
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John T
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Re: Plato’s Timaeus and the Biblical Creation Accounts [Gmirkin]

Post by John T »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:03 pm ...I don't think you understand what the religion of the Pentateuch...The Pentateuch is about the land of Israel....
"When you come into the land that the LORD your God is giving you....The LORD God will raise up for you a prophet like me [Moses] from among your own people; you shall heed such a prophet. This is what you requested of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said: 'If I hear the voice of the LORD my God any more, or ever again see this great fire, I will die." Deuteronomy 18:9 and 15-16.

Plato's god (the master craftsman) does not intervene in human affairs. The Jewish God does intervene. Hence the concept by Gnostics that the Jewish God is a lessor, demi-god.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Plato’s Timaeus and the Biblical Creation Accounts [Gmirkin]

Post by Secret Alias »

It was the first time that I went to Israel that this understanding hit me with full force. 'It's all about this.' Doesn't mean I agree with it or subscribe to the 'holiness' of 'the land.' Just a statement of fact. It 'clicks' like every time you have sex with someone and immediately afterward they want to go shopping. The Pentateuch is undoubtedly filled with nonsense. But it's PURPOSED nonsense. It's not like a random collection of myths. Whoever wrote this book had a specific purpose in mind - viz. 'Zionism' or more correctly 'Gerizimism' (no mention of Jerusalem in the Pentateuch). But the emphasis on 'the land' is so obvious and yet no one pays attention. Explains bar Kochba and the final revolt too. The whole messiah concept and ultimately why Jesus isn't it. Jesus isn't enough about the land to be the 'fulfillment of the Law.'
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John T
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Re: Plato’s Timaeus and the Biblical Creation Accounts [Gmirkin]

Post by John T »

Secret Alias wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 7:01 am Jesus isn't enough about the land to be the 'fulfillment of the Law.'
If you read Mark again, you will understand that John the Baptist and Jesus were preaching that their God will soon remove the Kittim from their holy land and restore the throne of David. That is what the Essenes, (i.e. Qumran community) prophesied and the event was at hand. The axe is laid at the root of the tree.

However, it did not work out that way because the Romans wiped out the Qumran community in 68 C.E. The surviving Jews wondered what did they miss? The Christian/Jews said, God sent you a prophet and you did not heed.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Plato’s Timaeus and the Biblical Creation Accounts [Gmirkin]

Post by Secret Alias »

"If you read Mark again, you will understand that John the Baptist and Jesus were preaching that their God will soon remove the Kittim from their holy land and restore the throne of David."

What am I supposed to do with this?
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John T
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Re: Plato’s Timaeus and the Biblical Creation Accounts [Gmirkin]

Post by John T »

Secret Alias wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 7:52 am "If you read Mark again, you will understand that John the Baptist and Jesus were preaching that their God will soon remove the Kittim from their holy land and restore the throne of David."

What am I supposed to do with this?
It is up to you to decide the value of it. The value of the Essence movement. The value of Timaeus. More importantly, the value of so-called expert's opinion when they don't have a clue, that they don't have a clue. :cheers:
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Secret Alias
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Re: Plato’s Timaeus and the Biblical Creation Accounts [Gmirkin]

Post by Secret Alias »

The autocorrect on your phone is changing 'Essenes' to 'Essence.' Like it's an African-American movement. Image
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Plato’s Timaeus and the Biblical Creation Accounts [Gmirkin]

Post by Leucius Charinus »

billd89 wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:51 amWhether the 'Garden of Eden' story is from Egypt (Siriad/Sethrum), or Lebanon, or Iraq, if it's 'Platonic' then it's most likely 'Egyptian'.
I think Gmirkin argues that it is derived from Plato's Timaeus in terms of a cosmic creation behind the terrestrial creation.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Plato’s Timaeus and the Biblical Creation Accounts [Gmirkin]

Post by StephenGoranson »

If I understand R. Gmirkin's proposal correctly. in c. 273-272 a bilingual group (perhaps 70 or 72, perhaps reflected in Letter of Aristaeus, which RG thinks partly accurate, partly not) went to the Alexandria library, read Plato, Berossus, and some other Greek writers, and wrote the entire Torah, with Greek translation also done then or soon after. (Next step, I just wonder, might be the Greek version first?)

This seems to me far-fetched, overestimating the Greek influence and underestimating the Semitic-language traditions.

Gmirkin, Berossus book, 2006, page 2:
The first five books of the Hebrew Bible were "composed in their entirely about 273-272 BCE" in Alexandria.

Gmirkin, Plato book, 2022, publisher description in the front matter of the book:
"....This book confirms the late date and Hellenistic backgrounds of Genesis 1-11, drawing on Plato's writings and
other Greek sources found in the Great Library of Alexandria."
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