Plato’s Timaeus and the Biblical Creation Accounts [Gmirkin]

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Plato’s Timaeus and the Biblical Creation Accounts [Gmirkin]

Post by neilgodfrey »

ABuddhist wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:21 am
StephenGoranson wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:33 am Though I am not currently accepting homework assignments from Mr. Godfrey, I have commented on the Berossus and Manetho book, including at amazon.
Mr. Gmirkin fancifully assigned homework to Hebrew Bible authors, a fictional syllabus of Greek texts for his imaginary Alexandria c. 273-272 crash course.
1. Where are links to your comments?

2. In what way do you think that Gmirkin's Alexandria is imaginary?
I have found Stephen's Amazon comment @ https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-revi ... 0567025926

I can understand why Stephen does not wish to defend any of his criticisms of Gmirkin here even though he says he has read more than one of his works. Others here will not allow him to get away with unsupported sweeping nonsense. He will be expected to have actually read and understood Gmirkin's thesis enough to be able to outline it honestly before he critiques it.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Plato’s Timaeus and the Biblical Creation Accounts [Gmirkin]

Post by neilgodfrey »

StephenGoranson wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:33 am Though I am not currently accepting homework assignments from Mr. Godfrey, I have commented on the Berossus and Manetho book, including at amazon.
Mr. Gmirkin fancifully assigned homework to Hebrew Bible authors, a fictional syllabus of Greek texts for his imaginary Alexandria c. 273-272 crash course.
Stephen, in a professional and honest review of any work it is best practice to give readers a simple outline of the argument being reviewed. You have failed to do that in your initial and subsequent comments and for that reason I have no reason to think you have bothered to attempt even to understand what Gmirkin's argument actually is.

Trying to make a reviewed author look stupid (by singling out a typo or spelling error and misrepresenting the contexts in which he uses a single word and emphasizing something obvious (like a Hebrew book is actually a Hebrew book!) as if that alone is all that is required to undermine a thesis), is also unprofessional and only points to the reviewer's failure to do justice to both the author and readers of the review.

When you respond to my request to support your criticisms with clear justifications from the book with the complaint that that would require having to do actual "homework", then you are as good as admitting you have no interest in doing the basics required by any reviewer or honest critic.
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John T
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Re: Plato’s Timaeus and the Biblical Creation Accounts [Gmirkin]

Post by John T »

neilgodfrey wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:01 am
StephenGoranson wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:33 am Though I am not currently accepting homework assignments from Mr. Godfrey,
You are the first person on this forum I have encountered who has objected to providing evidence for his criticisms on the grounds that the enquirer is imposing a "homework assignment". Oh dear.
Don't forget about me. Please add me to the list. I hope more will follow the advice of StephenGoranson.

I've turned down many a homework assignments on this forum. Chris Hansen and Ken Olson come to mind. They claim they have evidence against your premise but before they will say what it is, you first have to read all their papers, buy their books, or watch all their pod casts first.

It is called a fools errand, and I don't blame StephenGoranson one bit for declining to play the fool.

The sad part of all this is; Neil probably hasn't even read Plato's Timaeus let alone understand it. :facepalm:
ABuddhist
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Re: Plato’s Timaeus and the Biblical Creation Accounts [Gmirkin]

Post by ABuddhist »

John T wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:59 am I've turned down many a homework assignments on this forum. Chris Hansen and Ken Olson come to mind. They claim they have evidence against your premise but before they will say what it is, you first have to read all their papers, buy their books, or watch all their pod casts first.

It is called a fools errand, and I don't blame StephenGoranson one bit for declining to play the fool.
Ken Olson was not asking you to read all of his papers, just one paper in which he set out his argument.

Since when is reading and citing an argument which one disagrees with a fool's errand?

If it were, then there would be no basis for rational argument because people, rather than reading and responding to each others' disagreeing arguments, could just make up allegations about what their opponents are saying.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Plato’s Timaeus and the Biblical Creation Accounts [Gmirkin]

Post by neilgodfrey »

John T wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:59 am
I've turned down many a homework assignments on this forum.
No-one was asking for a "homework assignment" -- only for the evidence or data on which SG based his assertions.

One normally expects evidence to come first to mind and then the assertion to follow. So asking for that evidence is merely asking for what any reasonable person expects the one making the assertion to have readily at hand -- or uppermost in mind.

SG only remembers his assertions and not the arguments of RG's book. Merely repeating his assertions without being prepared to justify those assertions by outlining the evidence on which they are based is a pointless exercise -- unless one's aim is merely to denigrate another.

(SG implied that he would provide the evidence if he had ready access to the book but that it was too hot and far for him to get to the library -- so I gave him an online link to the book. That's when he changed his tune and said point blank he would not bother to support his assertions with evidence since he considered such a task a "homework assignment" -- from one who continually pesters him with calls for evidence to support whatever accusations he makes.)
StephenGoranson
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Re: Plato’s Timaeus and the Biblical Creation Accounts [Gmirkin]

Post by StephenGoranson »

R. Gmirkin in his Berossus and Manetho book claimed that Genesis depended on the former and Manetho [[correction:read Exodus}} on the latter, based on what he saw as parallels, and direction of putative influence. My review: parallelomania.
Further, I suggested, more than once, evidence of Hebrew Bible portions predating circa 273-272 BCE.
(I also mentioned that I have other things to do than, imo, rereading an unpersuasive book, when there are many others seemingly more promising that I have not yet read.)
Andrew Criddle made an excellent point (Aug 6, this thread):
"IF Gmirkin is suggesting (adapting Jellicoe's position on the LXX) that the Torah originated in Alexandria as a result of a collaboration between Jerusalem and Jewish scholars in Egypt, then (on the standard model of Samaritan history) its acceptance as Scripture by the Samaritan community would be unlikely."
Last edited by StephenGoranson on Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
ABuddhist
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Re: Plato’s Timaeus and the Biblical Creation Accounts [Gmirkin]

Post by ABuddhist »

StephenGoranson wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:35 am R. Gmirkin in his Berossus and Manetho book claimed that Genesis depended on the former and Manetho on the latter, based on what he saw as parallels, and direction of putative influence. My review: parallelomania.
Further, I suggested, more than once, evidence of Hebrew Bible portions predating circa 273-272 BCE.
(I also mentioned that I have other things to do than, imo, rereading an unpersuasive book, when there are many others seemingly more promising that I have not yet read.)
Andrew Criddle made an excellent point (Aug 6, this thread):
"IF Gmirkin is suggesting (adapting Jellicoe's position on the LXX) that the Torah originated in Alexandria as a result of a collaboration between Jerusalem and Jewish scholars in Egypt, then (on the standard model of Samaritan history) its acceptance as Scripture by the Samaritan community would be unlikely."
1. Many people have dismissed allegations as parallelomania, but their dismissals may be wrong. Having reasons for why it is parallelomania rather than a legitimate comparison would be useful.

2. Gmirkin's thesis, as I understand it, is compatible with the claim that portions from the Hebrew Bible predate circa 273-272 BCE, because the Hebrew Bible, in his model, was assembled from previous sources around that time. So for portions to predate that date of compilation and editing does not contradict his thesis.

3. The Samaritan Torah is different from the Jews' Torah, though, in ways which reflect Samaritan religious concerns, particularly about Mount Gerizim. Therefore, regardless of when and where the Torah was written. it was not simply adopted by the Samaritans from the Jews, at least not without modification by them.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Plato’s Timaeus and the Biblical Creation Accounts [Gmirkin]

Post by StephenGoranson »

correcting my sentence above:
"R. Gmirkin in his Berossus and Manetho book claimed that Genesis depended on the former and Manetho [[correction: read Exodus}} on the latter, based on what he saw as parallels, and direction of putative influence."
ABuddhist
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Re: Plato’s Timaeus and the Biblical Creation Accounts [Gmirkin]

Post by ABuddhist »

StephenGoranson wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:55 am correcting my sentence above:
"R. Gmirkin in his Berossus and Manetho book claimed that Genesis depended on the former and Manetho [[correction: read Exodus}} on the latter, based on what he saw as parallels, and direction of putative influence."
So you have nothing to say to my comments even as you are kind enough to tell us when you correct your words?

If my latest comments were in any way wrong, then I welcome correction by anybody.
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John T
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Re: Plato’s Timaeus and the Biblical Creation Accounts [Gmirkin]

Post by John T »

neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:09 pm
(SG implied that he would provide the evidence if he had ready access to the book but that it was too hot and far for him to get to the library -- so I gave him an online link to the book. That's when he changed his tune and said point blank he would not bother to support his assertions with evidence since he considered such a task a "homework assignment" -- from one who continually pesters him with calls for evidence to support whatever accusations he makes.)
Send the link to me on this thread. I will look into it.

Gmirkin's claim that the Torah was first written in 270 BCE under the editorial control of by the Greeks is ridiculous on it's face. Gmirkin's should know better since he claims to be an expert on dating the Dead Sea scrolls.

As a reminder, here is a 17 minute video on the standard theories on who wrote the Pentateuch. Matt Baker even offers his own kooky theory but hey, that is the nature of selling books and stuff. You know like Gmirkin.

https://youtu.be/NY-l0X7yGY0

After reading all the previous posts it is clear that no one here has read Timaeus (perhaps with the exception of StephenGoranson) let alone tried to understand it, especially Neil. So, Neil, give me the link and I will tell you if Gmirkin understands Plato's Timaeus and Critias regarding the "The good Craftsman". :popcorn:
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