Plato’s Timaeus and the Biblical Creation Accounts [Gmirkin]

[ABuddhist]

The aboriginal Chinese are related to the aboriginal Taiwanese rather than the Confucian, Han legacy.

This seems to me to be a strange claim. The so-called Aboriginal Chinese were diverse, but as far as I am aware, none of them were speakers of Austronesian languages, which originated in Taiwan and spreaded throughout the world but only reached the mainland in the Malay Peninsula and the former Champa state(s) in southern Vietnam.

[MrMacSon]

I've often wondered whether Judaism as we know it around the turn of the common era was not a product of the Maccabean revolution and Simon's "popular election" as king.

Appian mentions that Ptolemy levelled Jerusalem and its temple. The proto-Maccabean debate seems to have been over whether to fully Hellenize the temple, or keep it Egyptian.

This adds texture to the understanding of second temple Judaism.

Which Ptolemy? IV [Philopater] (221 – 203 B.C.)? V [Epiphanes] (203 -180 B.C.)? Another?

[andrewcriddle]

I've often wondered whether Judaism as we know it around the turn of the common era was not a product of the Maccabean revolution and Simon's "popular election" as king.

Appian mentions that Ptolemy levelled Jerusalem and its temple. The proto-Maccabean debate seems to have been over whether to fully Hellenize the temple, or keep it Egyptian.

This adds texture to the understanding of second temple Judaism.

Which Ptolemy? IV [Philopater] (221 – 203 B.C.)? V [Epiphanes] (203 -180 B.C.)? Another?

Ptolemy Lagus the General of Alexander the Great founder of the Ptolemaic dynasty.
See Josephus

Andrew Criddle

[neilgodfrey]

I know there's one discussion about Hellenic influence on Genesis in terms of textual genealogy.

However, as a separate discussion, isn't it possible that the cosmology of Timaeus did not originate with Plato?

I recall reading about aboriginal Chinese mythology which has some VERY familiar motifs (seven suns shot by the hunter vs seven headed serpent felled by the hunter). One such motif has to do with a cosmic egg, which is related to the dying of eggs to be red in Chinese festivals (very oddly similar to Easter traditions in the West).

The cosmic egg - and I've lost track of the paper discussing this - really does vaguely resemble some Gnostic language which I see echoing out of or in parallel to Timaeus. In the Chinese tradition, the egg is a kind of Omphalos stone, which some chaos serpent eats as a propitiation.

. . . . .

Your point reminds me of James Frazer's approach in which he identified universal motifs in The Golden Bough. Subsequent scholarship has made an effort to limit the idea of cultural influence to immediate neighbours and those with whom a direct influence of personal contact (migration, trade, political contacts) can be clearly established -- so that Frazer's more universalistic view has taken a backseat.

But still, one sometimes wonders -- as you point out. Hermann Detering has pointed to direct trade contacts and possible intellectual influence between "far eastern" contacts and Egypt. I wonder if another characteristic "primitive" cultures might contain a further explanation of the spread of ideas across vast distances: social relationships among the peoples I am thinking of are far more complex than anything we moderns tend to conceptualize. People of different "skins", for example, can be understood to have "family" or "refuge" communities thousands of miles apart even though they have never met or interacted before they meet up as a result of some long-range trek. Such social systems are not restricted to Australian aborigines but have, anthropologists tell us, been apparent elsewhere. It is only a theoretical possible option but it does open up a possibility of long-distance cultural influence that goes beyond the limits of trade with geographic neighbours and near-neighbours.

[yakovzutolmai]

I've often wondered whether Judaism as we know it around the turn of the common era was not a product of the Maccabean revolution and Simon's "popular election" as king.

Appian mentions that Ptolemy levelled Jerusalem and its temple. The proto-Maccabean debate seems to have been over whether to fully Hellenize the temple, or keep it Egyptian.

This adds texture to the understanding of second temple Judaism.

Which Ptolemy? IV [Philopater] (221 – 203 B.C.)? V [Epiphanes] (203 -180 B.C.)? Another?

Appian, Syrian Wars 10:50

[50] In this way the Romans, without fighting, came into possession of Cilicia and both inland Syria and Coele-Syria, Phoenicia, Palestine, and all the other countries bearing the Syrian name from the Euphrates to Egypt and the sea. The Jewish nation still resisted,note and Pompey conquered them, sent their king, Aristobulus, to Rome, and destroyed their greatest, and to them holiest, city, Jerusalem,note as Ptolemy, the first kingnote of Egypt, had formerly done.note It was afterward rebuilt and Vespasian destroyed it again,note and Hadrian did the same in our time.note

The "note" records the following historian's comment:

Not otherwise recorded

This is what's fun about ancient history. We know nothing, and sometimes that which we do know may be nothing in itself, an idle comment or mistake.

[yakovzutolmai]

The aboriginal Chinese are related to the aboriginal Taiwanese rather than the Confucian, Han legacy.

This seems to me to be a strange claim. The so-called Aboriginal Chinese were diverse, but as far as I am aware, none of them were speakers of Austronesian languages, which originated in Taiwan and spreaded throughout the world but only reached the mainland in the Malay Peninsula and the former Champa state(s) in southern Vietnam.

I have lost Jstor access and can no longer find the source, but since I found it through casual searches about Chinese religion and solar goddesses, you ought to be able to find it.

Apparently, the source is folklore from local farmers via interviews.

In any event, apologies for lacking a more nuanced picture of Chinese ethnography. The mythology is very ancient, though perhaps not belonging to the Austronesian populations who I suppose are "Antediluvian" with reference to the end of the recent Ice Age.

[yakovzutolmai]

I know there's one discussion about Hellenic influence on Genesis in terms of textual genealogy.

However, as a separate discussion, isn't it possible that the cosmology of Timaeus did not originate with Plato?

I recall reading about aboriginal Chinese mythology which has some VERY familiar motifs (seven suns shot by the hunter vs seven headed serpent felled by the hunter). One such motif has to do with a cosmic egg, which is related to the dying of eggs to be red in Chinese festivals (very oddly similar to Easter traditions in the West).

The cosmic egg - and I've lost track of the paper discussing this - really does vaguely resemble some Gnostic language which I see echoing out of or in parallel to Timaeus. In the Chinese tradition, the egg is a kind of Omphalos stone, which some chaos serpent eats as a propitiation.

. . . . .

Your point reminds me of James Frazer's approach in which he identified universal motifs in The Golden Bough. Subsequent scholarship has made an effort to limit the idea of cultural influence to immediate neighbours and those with whom a direct influence of personal contact (migration, trade, political contacts) can be clearly established -- so that Frazer's more universalistic view has taken a backseat.

But still, one sometimes wonders -- as you point out. Hermann Detering has pointed to direct trade contacts and possible intellectual influence between "far eastern" contacts and Egypt. I wonder if another characteristic "primitive" cultures might contain a further explanation of the spread of ideas across vast distances: social relationships among the peoples I am thinking of are far more complex than anything we moderns tend to conceptualize. People of different "skins", for example, can be understood to have "family" or "refuge" communities thousands of miles apart even though they have never met or interacted before they meet up as a result of some long-range trek. Such social systems are not restricted to Australian aborigines but have, anthropologists tell us, been apparent elsewhere. It is only a theoretical possible option but it does open up a possibility of long-distance cultural influence that goes beyond the limits of trade with geographic neighbours and near-neighbours.

These motifs are more specific than some others. You have more animistic motifs (the mud-diver bird). The cosmic egg could have been philosophically expanded by the time of Plato (my mind goes to Mt Carmel, Ezekial and Pythagoras). However, it could have already been an advanced motif even when it was spreading to far flung places.

My personal theory is that there was a Persian Gulf civilization which was destroyed by the ca 4000 BC meteor, and while this may not be Atlantis per se, it is a lost and advanced culture. I would like to say that Imhotep and the entire mythos of Daedalus/Ptah/Kaveh comes from them. Something to the effect of the water buffalo being bred into the domesticated cow in the Persian Gulf before it was flooded, and then survivors taking their stock to the Taurus mountains and spreading them from there. Providing us our solar bull religion, the animal itself, and a basis for the Noah myth.

I once believed (can't remember the source) that I found scholarship linking Sumerian and Harrapan populations, genetically. A big claim so ignore it since I don't have the source. However, if the Persian Gulf held an advanced culture, then of course it would spread next to Sumer and the Indus, which are both adjacent. Such a culture is more likely to have traded and had trade colonies in the Indies than some speculations about Egypt and its alleged Indian colonies.

This theory is much more consistent with evidence, timing, and the development of culture continuously from 10,000 BC in the fertile crescent. Then say, Atlantis.

Once ancient source claimed a Phoenician naming their original homeland as Bahrain, for what it's worth.

[MrMacSon]

Appian, Syrian Wars 10:50

[50] In this way the Romans, without fighting, came into possession of Cilicia and both inland Syria and Coele-Syria, Phoenicia, Palestine, and all the other countries bearing the Syrian name from the Euphrates to Egypt and the sea. The Jewish nation still resisted,note 1 and Pompey conquered them, sent their king, Aristobulus, to Rome, and destroyed their greatest, and to them holiest, city, Jerusalem,note 2 as Ptolemy [1 Soter, the son of Lagus], the first kingnote 3 of Egypt, had formerly done.note 4

Cheers

FWIW, via https://www.livius.org/sources/content/ ... n-wars-10/

1. 63 BCE
2. Pompey's capture of Jerusalem is described here
3. The first Macedonian king of course
4. Not otherwise recorded

Before I asked the question, "which Ptolemy?", I internet searched, 'Ptolemy Temple', and found this from the Jewish Encyclopedia

Takes Jerusalem on the Sabbath
It was Ptolemy I. who brought Palestine and the Jews under the dominion of the Ptolemies. After the death of Alexander the Great Cœle-Syria and Judea were apportioned to Laomedon, but Ptolemy I took them from this weak prince—as Josephus maintains, at least as regards Jerusalem by deception as well as by persuasion. Ptolemy appeared before the city (320 B.C.), pretending that he wished to sacrifice, and seized it on a Sabbath, a day on which the Jews did not fight. As authority for this statement Agatharchides of Cnidus, a Greek author, is cited by Josephus ("Contra Ap." i., § 22; more briefly in "Ant." xii. 1, § 1; comp. Müller, "Fragmenta Historicorum Græcorum," iii. 196; T. Reinach," Textes d' Auteurs Grecs et Romains Relatifs au Judaïsme," i. 42). On this occasion Ptolemy I is said to have taken many captives from Jerusalem and from the rest of Judea as well as from Samaria, and to have settled them in Egypt. Futhermore, since he knew how sacred an oath was for the Jews, he is said to have used them to garrison important strongholds ("Ant." l.c.). Josephus adds that thereafter many Jews went voluntarily to Egypt to live, partly on account of the excellence of the land and partly on account of the kind treatment accorded them by Ptolemy (ib.).

Kindness to the Jews
Elsewhere also the kindness of the Ptolemies toward the Jews is highly praised by Josephus ("Contra Ap." ii., §§ 4, 5); and this especially in comparison with the cruel persecutions which the Jews suffered later at the hands of the Seleucidæ in Syria. In fact, the policy of the leading circles in Jerusalem was always to rely on the Ptolemies in opposition to the Seleucidæ. But that manifested itself only in the course of time. As regards the early period the statements of Josephus are very doubtful, since both the early settlement of Jews in Egypt—which, at least in the case of Alexandria, is said to have taken place under Alexander the Great—and their military virtues seem to have been assumed for apologetic reasons when the hatred of the Jews, proceeding from Alexandria, made an apology desirable. According to a later authority, no less than 30,000 Jewish soldiers were placed in Egyptian forts (Aristeas Letter, ed. Wendland, § 13). Something similar must at any rate have happened later; for a "camp of the Jews" is explicitly mentioned, and military achievements of the Jews are certainly spoken of. It is positive that the legal organization of the Egyptian Jews, as in fact the whole legal organization of the Ptolemaic state, was instituted by Ptolemy I. It can hardly be doubted that he gave the Jews at Alexandria equal rights (ἰσοπολιτεία) with the incoming Macedonians.

Many Jews Follow Ptolemy to Egypt
Ptolemy went to Palestine several times on military expeditions, e.g., in the campaign of the year 320, and in that of 312, which ended with the battle of Gaza. Although he was victorious, he found it expedient to evacuate Palestine for the time being; and on his departure he caused the strongholds of Acre (Acco), Joppa, Gaza, Samaria, and Jerusalemto be razed to the ground (see Appian, "Syriaca," § 50). According to the testimony of Hecatæus of Abdera, whom Josephus ("Contra Ap." i., § 22) cites, many Jews felt impelled on this occasion to move to Egypt, and the generally respected high priest Hezekiah also attached himself to Ptolemy. It was, in truth, difficult for Egypt to retain Palestine in opposition to the newly arisen Syrian kingdom, but Ptolemy I. and his successors never relinquished their claim to the cities of Gaza, Joppa, and Jerusalem. The wars which were waged for these places between the Ptolemies and the Seleucidæ, and the sufferings which ensued therefrom for the Jews, are graphically described in Dan. xi.; the "king of the south" in verse 5 of that chapter referring to Ptolemy I. (see Jerome in the name of Porphyrius ad loc.).

https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/arti ... -ptolemy-i

There's this

There were at least five ruling Ptolemaic rulers of Judah. Ptolemy Soter transported Jewish people to Egypt and his Greek homeland. He wanted to teach them how to speak his native tongue. This wasn’t a problem for the Jewish people who were already used to practice of being forced into other lands and some of them welcomed the ability to travel to other regions.

Ptolemy put a Jewish priest who was loyal to him in charge of Judah. Jewish leaders who governed in the time of Ptolemy had to keep order and make sure the people pay their taxes on time. As long as they fulfilled these requirements Ptolemy lets them do as they pleased. Greek culture had become so dominant in the ancient world around 300 B.C. that almost every person knew some form of the Greek language.
.. < . . snip . . >
The Septuagint was created, and this is the Greek version of the Tanakh. The Old Testament was also translated into Greek at a later time The New Testament writers of the Christian Scriptures also used Greek to write down their texts around 100 A.D. The Septuagint was written during the era of the Ptolemaic rulers. Even though most Ptolemaic rulers didn’t care for the Jewish people, unfortunately, there were some that did but in the wrong kind of way. Ptolemy IV Philopater (221 – 203 B.C.) and Ptolemy V Epiphanes (203 - 180 B.C.) both hated the Jews. They persecuted the Jews for about 40 years during their reigns, and they desecrated their temple. The Jewish people were extremely happy when Ptolemy IV Philpater died.

https://amazingbibletimeline.com/blog/t ... y-ptolemy/

And there's this in Josephus Antiquities

Nay, Agatharchides of Cnidus, who wrote the acts of Alexander's successors, reproaches us with superstition, as if we, by it, had lost our liberty; where he says thus: "There is a nation called the nation of the Jews, who inhabit a city strong and great, named Jerusalem. These men took no care, but let it come into the hands of Ptolemy, as not willing to take arms, and thereby they submitted to be under a hard master, by reason of their unseasonable superstition." This is what Agatharchides relates of our nation. But when Ptolemy had taken a great many captives, both from the mountainous parts of Judea, and from the places about Jerusalem and Samaria, and the places near Mount Gerizzim, he led them all into Egypt, [2] and settled them there. And as he knew that the people of Jerusalem were most faithful in the observation of oaths and covenants; and this from the answer they made to Alexander, when he sent an embassage to them, after he had beaten Darius in battle; so he distributed many of them into garrisons, and at Alexandria gave them equal privileges of citizens with the Macedonians themselves; and required of them to take their oaths, that they would keep their fidelity to the posterity of those who committed these places to their care. Nay, there were not a few other Jews who, of their own accord, went into Egypt, as invited by the goodness of the soil, and by the liberality of Ptolemy.

https://biblehub.com/library/josephus/t ... my_the.htm

[yakovzutolmai]

There's this

There were at least five ruling Ptolemaic rulers of Judah. Ptolemy Soter transported Jewish people to Egypt and his Greek homeland. He wanted to teach them how to speak his native tongue. This wasn’t a problem for the Jewish people who were already used to practice of being forced into other lands and some of them welcomed the ability to travel to other regions.

Ptolemy put a Jewish priest who was loyal to him in charge of Judah. Jewish leaders who governed in the time of Ptolemy had to keep order and make sure the people pay their taxes on time. As long as they fulfilled these requirements Ptolemy lets them do as they pleased. Greek culture had become so dominant in the ancient world around 300 B.C. that almost every person knew some form of the Greek language.
.. < . . snip . . >
The Septuagint was created, and this is the Greek version of the Tanakh. The Old Testament was also translated into Greek at a later time The New Testament writers of the Christian Scriptures also used Greek to write down their texts around 100 A.D. The Septuagint was written during the era of the Ptolemaic rulers. Even though most Ptolemaic rulers didn’t care for the Jewish people, unfortunately, there were some that did but in the wrong kind of way. Ptolemy IV Philopater (221 – 203 B.C.) and Ptolemy V Epiphanes (203 - 180 B.C.) both hated the Jews. They persecuted the Jews for about 40 years during their reigns, and they desecrated their temple. The Jewish people were extremely happy when Ptolemy IV Philpater died.

https://amazingbibletimeline.com/blog/t ... y-ptolemy/

Very interesting for my own purposes. Ptolemy IV is the one who permitted Onias IV to build the Leontopolis Temple.

I have wondered if much of early Jewish commentary is something to the effect of: "Our Adonai is neither Assyrian nor Babylonian, He is Egyptian". The Maccabean crisis resulted from a desire to favor Egypt over Syria.

How interesting then for the Egyptian Jews to have a sort of schism with Judea, as it seems.

I know that there was a "Boethus" who was a member of Ptolemy Philometer's household. A builder. I have speculated that the Jewish Boethusians are the Oniads - a connection no one has made, nor really has tried to discuss. House of Onias = Beit Honniyoh. My speculation is that this event where the Leontopolis temple is built involves a close relationship between Boethus and Onias, where "Beit Honniyo" sounding close enough to Boethus merits some sort of adoption of that name. I also think the name pertains to Bethaniyah or Batanea (Bethany in the Bible).

Recall the ire directed toward "Egyptian magicians" in the Talmudic discussions adjacent to Christian history.

[MrMacSon]

If Gmirkin is right about the Pentateuch being composed around 270 BCE, using Greek sources found at the Great Library of Alexandria, then the people that Ptolemy I took to Egypt may not have been Jews(?)

The Septuagint may be seen as a Jewish salvo in the "war of books" that began with the publication of Hecataeus's highly nationalistic account of the Egyptians around 320-315 BCE. Besides correcting misinformation about the Jews in Manetho, the new version of the Pentateuch presented the Jews as possessing a national literature of their own on a par with the Egyptians and Babylonians. We may conclude that the Septuagint was written, not merely for Alexandrian Jews, but with a wider Greek-speaking audience in mind. Literary stimulus from the royal patronage of Ptolemy II Philadelphus was thus decisive in creating, not only the Septuagint, but also the Hebrew Pentateuch that lay behind it.

Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible, p. 255
via viewtopic.php?p=66828#p66828