Two origins of Enoch?

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rgprice
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Two origins of Enoch?

Post by rgprice »

Gen 4 states:

17 Cain had relations with his wife and she conceived, and gave birth to Enoch; and Cain built a city, and named the city Enoch, after the name of his son. 18 Now to Enoch was born Irad, and Irad fathered Mehujael, and Mehujael fathered Methushael, and Methushael fathered Lamech.

Here Enoch is a descendant of Cain.

Gen 5 states:

5 This is the book of the generations of Adam. On the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female, and He blessed them and named them “mankind” on the day when they were created.

3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth. 4 Then the days of Adam after he fathered Seth were eight hundred years, and he fathered other sons and daughters. 5 So all the days that Adam lived were 930 years, and he died.

6 Now Seth lived 105 years, and fathered Enosh. 7 Then Seth lived 807 years after he fathered Enosh, and he fathered other sons and daughters. 8 So all the days of Seth were 912 years, and he died.

...

18 Now Jared lived 162 years, and fathered Enoch. 19 Then Jared lived eight hundred years after he fathered Enoch, and he fathered other sons and daughters. 20 So all the days of Jared were 962 years, and he died.

21 Now Enoch lived sixty-five years, and fathered Methuselah. 22 Then Enoch walked with God three hundred years after he fathered Methuselah, and he fathered other sons and daughters. 23 So all the days of Enoch were 365 years. 24 Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

Here Enoch is a descendant of Seth.

What's going on?
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John T
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Re: Two origins of Enoch?

Post by John T »

What is going on you ask?

There are several ancient versions of Enoch.

So, you got to ask which one was used to rewrite Genesis.

Before the alphabet was created people kept historical records by telling ancestral stories.
ABuddhist
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Re: Two origins of Enoch?

Post by ABuddhist »

rgprice wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 4:44 am Gen 4 states:

17 Cain had relations with his wife and she conceived, and gave birth to Enoch; and Cain built a city, and named the city Enoch, after the name of his son. 18 Now to Enoch was born Irad, and Irad fathered Mehujael, and Mehujael fathered Methushael, and Methushael fathered Lamech.

Here Enoch is a descendant of Cain.

Gen 5 states:

5 This is the book of the generations of Adam. On the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female, and He blessed them and named them “mankind” on the day when they were created.

3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth. 4 Then the days of Adam after he fathered Seth were eight hundred years, and he fathered other sons and daughters. 5 So all the days that Adam lived were 930 years, and he died.

6 Now Seth lived 105 years, and fathered Enosh. 7 Then Seth lived 807 years after he fathered Enosh, and he fathered other sons and daughters. 8 So all the days of Seth were 912 years, and he died.

...

18 Now Jared lived 162 years, and fathered Enoch. 19 Then Jared lived eight hundred years after he fathered Enoch, and he fathered other sons and daughters. 20 So all the days of Jared were 962 years, and he died.

21 Now Enoch lived sixty-five years, and fathered Methuselah. 22 Then Enoch walked with God three hundred years after he fathered Methuselah, and he fathered other sons and daughters. 23 So all the days of Enoch were 365 years. 24 Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

Here Enoch is a descendant of Seth.

What's going on?
From what I recall in my readings, the scholarly consensus is that the 2 genealogies are variants of a single list, but are meant to represent, within the Genesis narrative, separate lineages. Accordingly, the result is not 2 origins for Enoch within the Genesis narrative but rather 2 people named Enoch from different lineages.

Of course, whether this was the intention behind the variant genealogies originally, I know not. They could originally have been about the same Enoch, I suppose.
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billd89
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Re: Two origins of Enoch?

Post by billd89 »

2 different people named 'Enoch' of different lineages from the same 3rd Generation of Humanity is not only improbable, it's ridiculous. Of course, this is two versions about 'Enoch' : two competing Enoch interpretations.

Enoch is a Chaldaean, no?

Version 1 is the Son of the Accursed, whereas Version 2 is Son of the Blessed. But the Sethians didn't go along with whatever Jewish faction held power; they too were cast out. The OT is full of grievance against traitors and other reviled baddies: OT Judaism reads like a religion of exclusion and so many vendettas.

How many competing priestly factions were represented at the Jerusalem Temple c.35 AD?
Last edited by billd89 on Thu Sep 08, 2022 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
rgprice
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Re: Two origins of Enoch?

Post by rgprice »

billd89 wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 6:16 am 2 different people named Enoch from different lineages from the same 3rd Generation of Humanity is not improbable, it's ridiculous. Of course this is two versions about 'Enoch' : two competing Enoch interpretations.

Enoch is a Chaldaean, no?

Version 1 is the Son of the Accursed, whereas Version 2 is Son of the Blessed. But the Sethians didn't go along with whatever Jewish faction held power; they too were cast out. The OT is full of grievance against traitors and other reviled baddies: OT Judaism reads like a religion of exclusion and so many vendettas.

How many competing priestly factions were represented at the Jerusalem Temple c.35 AD?
Right. Not only two Enochs, but both give rise to Methushael/Methuselah. Surely these are just variants on the name of a single figure.

And the issue is as you say, its not just that there are slightly different genealogies, its that in one case Enoch is the descendant of Cain the evil while in the other instance he is the descendant of Seth the blessed.

So how is Enoch associated with two polar opposite genealogies back to back? Its one thing to consider that there were multiple factions that had competing views, but surely one faction or another had control over the final revision of Genesis that is found in the Torah. Why wouldn't a final editor take a side? Why are both sides present in the final edit?
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John T
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Re: Two origins of Enoch?

Post by John T »

Why does the lineage of Adam in Genesis 4 reads different than Genesis 5?

Logic would say when the current form of Genesis was written in Paleo-Hebrew as a translation/compilation from at least two different (much older) renditions of Genesis. The Enoch Jews had their sacred version and the 1st temple Jews had another. For the sake of peace both agreed to incorporate both during the 2nd temple period. If true, it is further evidence that the origins of the Book of Enoch go much further back than the story of Exodus. Further back than proto-Sinatic script c. 1750 BCE.

The Rabbinic Jews (e.g. Lawrence Shiffman) were not too pleased when the Book of Watchers was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Why the next thing you know it will turn out that Christianity started as a reform movement from the Enochic Essene's and not from the Pharisee's.

The Son of Man is mentioned in 1 Enoch 46:1-4.
Don't tell Shiffman that. :whistling:
ABuddhist
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Re: Two origins of Enoch?

Post by ABuddhist »

John T wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 9:20 am Logic would say when the current form of Genesis was written in Paleo-Hebrew as a translation/compilation from at least two different (much older) renditions of Genesis. The Enoch Jews had their sacred version and the 1st temple Jews had another. For the sake of peace both agreed to incorporate both during the 2nd temple period. If true, it is further evidence that the origins of the Book of Enoch go much further back than the story of Exodus. Further back than proto-Sinatic script c. 1750 BCE.
1. What evidence do you have that the current form of Genesis was ever written in Paleo-Hebrew?

2. Why does the idea that Genesis incorporates older and rival traditions count as evidence that the Book of Enoch was of such great antiquity as you suggest? It could merely have been a recenter text than you suggest (perhaps newer than Genesis, perhaps older), in which the "Enochic" tradition of Judaism was allowed to run unchecked by rival traditions or compromises.
rgprice
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Re: Two origins of Enoch?

Post by rgprice »

Well, so I guess the real question is, how did Jews in the Hellenistic era, or Jews at Qumran interpret the genealogy of Enoch? Were there disputes over whether he came from Cain or Seth? Was the matter even discussed? Did anyone care? How was the Enoch of Cain explained?
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DCHindley
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Re: Two origins of Enoch?

Post by DCHindley »

Enosh (not Enoch) son of Seth is in all traditions we have record of. So is Enoch son of Jared. There is also an extra Cainan in some traditions. This table compared the stated age of the father at the time of the birth of his son.

MT
LXX
SP
Josephus
Jubilees
Adam 130 230 130 230 130
Seth 105 205 105 205 105
Enos 90 190 90 190 90
Cainan I 70 170 70 170 70
Maleleel 65 165 65 165 66
Jared 162 162 62 162 61
Enoch 65 165 65 165 65
Mathuselah 187 167 67 187 65
Lamech 182 188 53 182 55
Noah 500 500 500 500 500
Sem 100 100 100 112 103
Arphaxad 35 135 135 135 65
Cainan II 0 130 0 0 57
Sala 30 130 130 130 71
Eber 34 134 134 134 64
Phaleg 30 130 130 130 15
Ragau 32 132 132 132 108
Sarug 30 130 130 130 57
Nahor 29 79 79 79 62
Terah 70 70 70 70 70
Abram

But waaay back in the text of Jubilees, Adam + Eve produce Cain, who married his sister Awan, and gave birth to an Enoch (not same as Enos son of Seth or Enoch who arbitrated between God and the Watchers), who married an unknown and had enough children to found a city. This Enoch son of Cain is mentioned in the MT of Genesis. Enoch (which means "initiated" or "disciplined") seems to have been a popular name. Should we think that all people in all ages with same or similar names are conflations of just one person?
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John T
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Re: Two origins of Enoch?

Post by John T »

rgprice wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 10:53 am Well, so I guess the real question is, how did Jews in the Hellenistic era, or Jews at Qumran interpret the genealogy of Enoch? Were there disputes over whether he came from Cain or Seth? Was the matter even discussed? Did anyone care? How was the Enoch of Cain explained?
Don't you mean, Enoch son of Jared?

When Jared had lived one hundred sixty-two years he became the father of Enoch....Genesis 5:18

Of course they knew and of course they had disputes. Hence one of the main reasons why the Essenes after the Maccabean revolt were ostracized by the Hasmoeans. Likewise, both sects knew there were two different men by the name of Lamech. One was the son of Methushael, and the other the son of Methuselah.

Much like the Levite priesthood vs. Zadok priesthood.
Or Muslims still having an on going dispute with Rabbinic Jews regarding the genealogy of Ishmael over Jacob.

Be as that may, the copies of Genesis found at Qumran is spotty at best.
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