Mommy flatulence wrote:semiopen wrote:Mommy Flatulence - I read Babel into your post because Genesis 11 is the Tower of Babel.
If the Sumerian thing isn't about Babel, you have a little problem.
Your position isn't convincing.
What next? Maybe you are going to claim that your absurd claim about Genesis 1 is also proven by this because 11 has a 1 in it.
No, you read Babel into the text because you failed to read the link, failed to read the Genesis passage given, failed to make the obvious comparison (and failed to read what I plainly said I was comparing).
Babel was a Sumerian city, so I don't see a problem. My claim is that Genesis 1-11 are of Sumerian origin. I expect Sumerian cities to be discussed.
(Wouldn't you?)
But while we're on the topic, there's a book called "The Uruk World System" where an author I believe is atheist exhaustively demonstrates that the Babel empire mentioned in Genesis 10 and 11 existed from about 4000-3500, and the empire itself was Sumerian in ethnicity based on architecture, pottery samples, pottery materials, cylinder seals and other material culture.
This is evidence that (not only is Genesis 1-11 Sumerian) Genesis preserves (accurately) what had to be an oral tradition from 4000-2800 BC when writing was advanced enough to tell the story.
The Uruk World System: The Dynamics of Expansion of Early Mesopotamian Civilization, Second Edition -
http://www.amazon.com/The-Uruk-World-Sy ... rld+system
I don't know this book, it is discussed here
http://www.sumerian.org/An%20Uruk%20World-System.htm I don't see anything that would advance your theories.
http://www.sumerian.org seems like a serious web site that discusses the Sumerian language. One of the FAQs goes -
Is Hebrew a daughter language of Sumerian?
No. Hebrew belongs to the Afro-Asiatic language family. Sumerian is a different language family.
>How different are the following languages. Akkadian, Phoenician, Egyptian
>It is believed that Jesus (on the cross) said, Eli eli lama shabatani ( I
>think this to be Aramaic) in Hebrew it would be Eli Eli lama azaftani,
>consequently could I assume that Hebrew is a branch of Aramaic.?
The languages mentioned are all sister languages, spoken simultaneously in different places. Egyptian is related to Semitic languages such as Akkadian, Aramaic, Hebrew, and Phoenician.
I'm not sure what conclusions we can jump to here, except that the questioner is a novice and Sumerian and Hebrew are in different zip codes. We do know, that the cultures got intimately acquainted during the Babylonian exile.
Regarding the Tower of Babel, I've always loved that story because it is so strange and pointless.
Jeremiah 51, I'm sure you know, is famous for having the only two
Atbash found in the bible.
Atbash is a simple substitution cipher for the Hebrew alphabet. It consists in substituting aleph (the first letter) for tav (the last), beth (the second) for shin (one before last), and so on, reversing the alphabet. Hence the name, Aleph-Tav-Beth-Shin (אתבש). In the Book of Jeremiah, לב קמי Lev Kamai (51:1) is Atbash for כשדים Kasdim (Chaldeans), and ששך Sheshakh (25:26; 51:41) is Atbash for בבל Bavel (Babylon).
כֹּ֚ה אָמַ֣ר יְהוָ֔ה הִנְנִי֙ מֵעִ֣יר עַל־בָּבֶ֔ל וְאֶל־יֹשְׁבֵ֖י לֵ֣ב קָמָ֑י ר֖וּחַ מַשְׁחִֽית׃
Thus said the LORD: See, I am rousing a destructive wind Against Babylon and the inhabitants of Leb-kamai.
(Jer 51:1 TNK)
אֵ֚יךְ נִלְכְּדָ֣ה שֵׁשַׁ֔ךְ וַתִּתָּפֵ֖שׂ תְּהִלַּ֣ת כָּל־הָאָ֑רֶץ אֵ֣יךְ הָיְתָ֧ה לְשַׁמָּ֛ה בָּבֶ֖ל בַּגּוֹיִֽם׃
How has Sheshach been captured, The praise of the whole earth been taken! How has Babylon become A horror to the nations! (Jer 51:41 TNK)
We tried to cure Babylon But she was incurable. Let us leave her and go, Each to his own land; For her punishment reaches to heaven, It is as high as the sky. (Jer 51:9 TNK)
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/jeremiah/51-9.htm
Possibly there may be an allusive reference to the tower of Babel, “reaching unto heaven,” as the type of Babylonian greatness
Jer 51:20-26 is linguistically similar to Genesis 11:3-9
מַפֵּץ־אַתָּ֣ה לִ֔י כְּלֵ֖י מִלְחָמָ֑ה וְנִפַּצְתִּ֤י בְךָ֙ גּוֹיִ֔ם וְהִשְׁחַתִּ֥י בְךָ֖ מַמְלָכֽוֹת׃ 21 וְנִפַּצְתִּ֣י בְךָ֔ ס֖וּס וְרֹֽכְב֑וֹ וְנִפַּצְתִּ֣י בְךָ֔ רֶ֖כֶב וְרֹכְבֽוֹ׃ 22 וְנִפַּצְתִּ֤י בְךָ֙ אִ֣ישׁ וְאִשָּׁ֔ה וְנִפַּצְתִּ֥י בְךָ֖ זָקֵ֣ן וָנָ֑עַר וְנִפַּצְתִּ֣י בְךָ֔ בָּח֖וּר וּבְתוּלָֽה׃
You are My war club, My weapons of battle; With you I clubbed nations, With you I destroyed kingdoms; 21 With you I clubbed horse and rider, With you I clubbed chariot and driver, 22 With you I clubbed man and woman, With you I clubbed graybeard and boy, With you I clubbed youth and maiden; (Jer 51:20-22 TNK)
This is a little poem where each line starts with
וְנִפַּצְתִּ֣י - with you I clubbed - but this word can also mean smash and scatter
Genesis 4-9 is very similar, with references to scatter.
And they said, "Come, let us build us a city, and a tower with its top in the sky, to make a name for ourselves; else we shall be scattered all over the world." (Gen 11:4 TNK)
נָפ֖וּץ
Thus the LORD scattered them from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city.
(Gen 11:8 TNK)
וַיָּ֙פֶץ
That is why it was called Babel, because there the LORD confounded the speech of the whole earth; and from there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.
(Gen 11:9 TNK)
הֱפִיצָ֣ם
This is sort of pulled from a paper by Jonathan Kline of Harvard at the Dec 2013 AJS convention.
I don't think anyone else talks about the Tower of Babel until Jeremiah. The language is very similar between Genesis 11 and Jeremiah 51. My wild guess is that Jeremiah 51 was written first, but the two passages are most likely only a small amount of time apart whoever wrote them.
I have to admit my self perception of myself as a human being is not really tied up in this. But why not believe something reasonable instead of looking for the outrageous. Here we see the exiles (scattered) wishing for a similar fate for the Babylonians.