the c. 273-272 Torah-creation hypothesis

[StephenGoranson]

I am not opposed to considering Greek texts.
I am not opposed to all new ideas.

For example, I proposed a new idea in interpreting a Greek text:

"The Exclusion of Ephraim in Rev. 7: 4-8 and Essene Polemic Against Pharisees" in Dead Sea Discoveries, 1995
https://people.duke.edu/~goranson/Exclu ... phraim.pdf

[MrMacSon]

For anyone interested, here is Oxford English Dictionary online sense 3 for hypothesis (skipping the etymology, the other senses, and the historical example quotations):

"3. A supposition or conjecture put forth to account for known facts; esp. in the sciences, a provisional supposition from which to draw conclusions that shall be in accordance with known facts, and which serves as a starting-point for further investigation by which it may be proved or disproved and the true theory arrived at."

I think that O.E.D. definition for 'hypothesis' over-reaches a lot.

Here's what I think it should be:

3. A supposition or conjecture put forth...which serves as a starting-point for further investigation

While it's true that further investigation may 'prove or disprove' a hypothesis, 'prove or disprove' is a false dichotomy. There is a lot of nuance about what outcomes of investigation or investigations of a hypothesis may infer eg. terminology often includes support or does not support, rather than prove or disprove.

("a provisional supposition from which to draw conclusions that shall be in accordance with known facts" is a dubious thing to say, too)

[Secret Alias]

If that Qumran fragment with the end of Exodus and the beginning of Leviticus is dated to 250 BCE must be something close to an exemplar. How did an exemplar end up in the middle of nowhere? Right off the caravan from Alexandria.

[neilgodfrey]

If that Qumran fragment with the end of Exodus and the beginning of Leviticus is dated to 250 BCE must be something close to an exemplar. How did an exemplar end up in the middle of nowhere? Right off the caravan from Alexandria.

I don't believe anyone has dated any scroll to a particular year. Usually one sees "early Hellenistic" or "mid third century bc" or "ca 250 bce" with "250 being used as a round figure to refer to "mid third century" or "early Hellenistic".

(I think you mean autograph, by the way, exemplar being a typo.)

[StephenGoranson]

True that C14 gives date ranges, not individual years, and at levels of probability.
But the observation still stands: how soon, given the claim, were copies purportedly widely distributed?

Oxford English Dictionary, exemplar, n., sense 2, " An individual copy of a text (esp. in manuscript)..."
So, not necessarily a typo. (Or, possibly, used in two senses above.)

[neilgodfrey]

True that C14 gives date ranges, not individual years, and at levels of probability.
But the observation still stands: how soon, given the claim, were copies purportedly widely distributed?

Given that you have read Gmirkin's work you already know the answer to that. So you tell SA.

Oxford English Dictionary, exemplar, n., sense 2, " An individual copy of a text (esp. in manuscript)..."
So, not necessarily a typo. (Or, possibly, used in two senses above.)

Don't you ever wonder why it is that every time you see my name here you are viscerally compelled to contradict or smear me? A little personal bias, there, don't you think?

Note: I did not accuse Stephan of ignorance or stupidity but simply pointed out an honest mistake. Stephan was presenting a picture of a particular manuscript written in Alexandria and being transported back to Palestine and falling off a wagon or whatever .... An autograph. But I'm sure he can speak for himself.

[Secret Alias]

What is the explanation for a copy of this Alexandrian invention in the Judean desert about 25 years after it was first composed. Just trying to put this all together. 'The Teacher of Righteousness' should be identified with Onias III and 'the Wicked priest' Menelaus. So what's that? Beginning of the second century? A century or so after the texts were invented in Alexandria? So in that century you have (a) a Samaritan cultus at Gerizim (b) Jewish sacrifice at Jerusalem and (c) a sectarian movement that moved into the desert with a near autograph copy of an Alexandrian Torah. Is there even a generation of peace where ecumenism existed in the Levant or where they at each others throats from the get go?

[StephenGoranson]

neilgodfrey, I do not comment every time I see your name. For example, in the thread on Ascension of Isaiah; I am aware of that text, but I am not up-to-date on recent interpretations and arguments, so I stay out. The c. 273-272 whatever I consider a poor history attempt that portrays Jews as fools.

[neilgodfrey]

neilgodfrey, I do not comment every time I see your name. For example, in the thread on Ascension of Isaiah; I am aware of that text, but I am not up-to-date on recent interpretations and arguments, so I stay out. The c. 273-272 whatever I consider a poor history attempt that portrays Jews as fools.

Oh you are so easy to tease, SG. You take yourself far too seriously.

You couldn't help but post an outraged response to what a "liar" I am for daring to suggest you respond to "every comment" of mine!

(Oh, and I've lost count, by the way, of the number of times you've tried to explain why your illegal copy of Berossus and Manetho was not illegal. )

[neilgodfrey]

What is the explanation for a copy of this Alexandrian invention in the Judean desert about 25 years after it was first composed. Just trying to put this all together. 'The Teacher of Righteousness' should be identified with Onias III and 'the Wicked priest' Menelaus. So what's that? Beginning of the second century? A century or so after the texts were invented in Alexandria? So in that century you have (a) a Samaritan cultus at Gerizim (b) Jewish sacrifice at Jerusalem and (c) a sectarian movement that moved into the desert with a near autograph copy of an Alexandrian Torah. Is there even a generation of peace where ecumenism existed in the Levant or where they at each others throats from the get go?

I think you know -- or must know -- that the date 250 BCE is not an absolute date (as per your "about 25 years") -- and to argue as if it is an absolute date is not, what's the word... a "scholarly", certainly not a "knowledgeable" use of the term.

But you have ignored my response and simply repeated yourself, -- by essentially asking me to respond to your date of a manuscript to "ca 273 BCE minus ca 25 years -- 248 BCE. Do you mean "250 plus or minus 3 years bce?"

But if you want to know when one might expect copies to be made of the Pentateuch and why, just ask Goranson -- he has read Gmirkin's study and is the one who brought up the question.

But by Jesus, I have seen NT scholars get all excited over the mere possibility that they have a real live manuscript from the Gospel of John dated to within the very year John's scribe was still washing from his fingers the ink that he used in writing the fourth gospel.