the c. 273-272 Torah-creation hypothesis

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
Post Reply
StephenGoranson
Posts: 2311
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:10 am

the c. 273-272 Torah-creation hypothesis

Post by StephenGoranson »

If, on the c.273-272 Torah creation hypothesis, Judaeans/Samaritans/Israelites had no national literature, what was there to "erase"?
And if, hypothetically, such was nonetheless erased ("clean slate"), what then was hypothetically incorporated in c. 273-272?

“Plato’s program of creating a mythic past in which the divine laws of the nation had been established in distant antiquity faced an obvious practical difficulty, namely the living memory of the new colonists. Plato fully recognized this problem and sought to overcome it by devising strategies to erase the nation’s memory of any other way of life, like erasing a tablet and starting with a clean slate. In order to erase the cultural memories of the past and replace them with new memories, the rulers would exercise complete control over the nation’s education, literature, public speech and cultural contacts with other nations…” (Gmirkin 2017 = Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible, 255.)
rgprice
Posts: 2058
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Re: the c. 273-272 Torah-creation hypothesis

Post by rgprice »

I think a bit more likely scenario is that this new literature would have been introduced with the claim that the national history and religion of the people had been suppressed/forgotten under the Persians, so this was a re-introduction of the "authentic" history and religion of the Israelites.
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: the c. 273-272 Torah-creation hypothesis

Post by Secret Alias »

I've outlined this before.

1. the Qumran Pentateuch is unlike the Masoretic text. Any theory that assumes the creation of the Pentateuch at a date closer to the Common Era has to take account of the similarities between the Book of Exodus in the hands of the Qumranites, Samaritans and the circle of R Ishmael (the earliest Jewish commentary on Exodus).
2. the Masoretic text of Exodus was clearly written to deny that there are two powers. Look at the section closely. The Israelites see one god on the mountain and hear another in heaven. Whoever edited the Masoretic text (and the surviving 'LXX') did so to advocate a monarchian/monotheist POV.
3. the Samaritans maintaining the 'Deuteronomy-infused' (from our perspective) Book of Exodus demonstrates the Samaritan origins of the Pentateuch reinforced by (a) the lack of mention of Jerusalem and (b) the focus on the ground around the Samaritan holy site of Gerizim.
4. even if the Samaritan origins of the surviving Pentateuch is acknowledged the differences between the Hebrew in Deuteronomy advocates for a core 'four book' rather than 'five book' i.e. that Deuteronomy was written later.
5. the Samaritan/Qumran/Ishmaelite proto-Exodus book then didn't incorporate parts of Deuteronomy but Deuteronomy cited or quoted sections of Exodus. These were smoothed over in the Masoretic rewrite (essentially removing the proofs of forgery)
6. Deuteronomy although written late has Persian loanwords. As such the rewriting likely occurred in a period where Persian was still influencing the Hebrew so at a period before 273. The Persian garden of Eden in Genesis is another example of the influence of Persia.

I don't think an adequate job has been done explaining these wrinkles in the development of the Pentateuch or perhaps better a Tetrateuch subsequently expanded to a Pentateuch with the addition of a Persian-influenced Book of Deuteronomy which plagiarized or quoted from the Book of Exodus.
rgprice
Posts: 2058
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Re: the c. 273-272 Torah-creation hypothesis

Post by rgprice »

Do you have a resource that highlights the differences between the MT and Qumranic texts?
StephenGoranson
Posts: 2311
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:10 am

Re: the c. 273-272 Torah-creation hypothesis

Post by StephenGoranson »

The Biblical Qumran Scrolls
Transcriptions and Textual Variants
Series:
Vetus Testamentum, Supplements, Volume: 134
Editor: Eugene Ulrich
The Biblical Qumran Scrolls presents all the Hebrew biblical manuscripts recovered from the eleven caves at Qumran. It provides a transcription of each identifiable fragment in consecutive biblical order together with the textual variants it contains. These manuscripts antedate by a millennium the previously available Hebrew manuscripts. They are the oldest, the best, and the most authentic witnesses to the texts of the Scriptures as they circulated in Jerusalem and surrounding regions at the time of the birth of Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism. The purpose is to collect in a single volume all the biblical editions originally published in a wide variety of books and articles.

Copyright Year: 2010
E-Book (PDF)
Availability: Published
ISBN: 978-90-04-18183-0
Publication date: 05 Oct 2010
Hardback
Availability: Published
ISBN: 978-90-04-18038-3
Publication date: 06 Oct 2010
rgprice
Posts: 2058
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Re: the c. 273-272 Torah-creation hypothesis

Post by rgprice »

1. the Qumran Pentateuch is unlike the Masoretic text. Any theory that assumes the creation of the Pentateuch at a date closer to the Common Era has to take account of the similarities between the Book of Exodus in the hands of the Qumranites, Samaritans and the circle of R Ishmael (the earliest Jewish commentary on Exodus).
Can you explain this more?

The texts of Exodus from Qumran are closer to that of the Samaritans, but what does this have to do with the original date of authorship? The Mekhilta of Rabbi Ishmael is presumably 4th century or so. What has it to do with anything?
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: the c. 273-272 Torah-creation hypothesis

Post by Secret Alias »

Well since Deuteronomy originally 'quoted' Exodus it naturally follows - along with linguistic evidence - that Deuteronomy was written after the rest of the Pentateuch. The current understanding doesn't take a two-fold - Tetrateuch then Pentateuch - development. Also if Deuteronomy is later and it contains obvious Persian loanwords the Tetrateuch was written earlier than the latest possible period for - according to the theory - Deuteronomy to have been written with Persian loanwords in Alexandria. How influential would we expect Persian to be in Alexandria?
StephenGoranson
Posts: 2311
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:10 am

Re: the c. 273-272 Torah-creation hypothesis

Post by StephenGoranson »

R. Gmirkin Vridar-blog-commented, 2022-10-03 21:24:27 GMT+0000 at 21:24:
"Yes, the replacement of earlier national memories based mostly on oral traditions was replaced by a new official national memory in the form of the Hebrew Bible in 270 BCE and thereafter. This took place exactly according to the literary agenda laws out in Plato’s Laws.

But note that a handful of written sources existed from earlier times: the royal annals of Judah and Israel, authentic prophetic oracles (Haggai) and some Persian Era official correspondence (Ezra) preserved in the temple. Possibly a few psalms and proverbs. Not a lot. I have also written about in various books and articles which you should track down and read. I don’t believe you have read Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible in which many of these issues were extensively discussed."
*****

So--now--instead of claiming that the first five books of Hebrew Bible "were composed in their entirety about 273-272 BCE" in Alexandria, and that other TaNaK books were later, RG is starting to accept the reality that some Bible writings are older than c. 273-272.
That is a change worth underlining.
Last edited by StephenGoranson on Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
StephenGoranson
Posts: 2311
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:10 am

Re: the c. 273-272 Torah-creation hypothesis

Post by StephenGoranson »

Further, though as far as I know, RG did not use this word, to claim that the people of Judaea/Samaria/Israel were brainwashed
may be a potentially-dangerous conspiracy theory prejudice.
Post Reply