Hakeem,
I am now certain that Justin did it. Until then there was only one gospel: the gospel of the Lord. It is called the gospel of Marcion, but Marcion certainly did not write it. It came from Paul, as Marcion said. It was the original jewish story, which Paul had, which he left to Marcion, and not only to Marcion as I discovered. It was spread. In this whole chain Marcion is the only upright honest person, uncomparable to the rest. Marcon certainly said Isu Chrestos, because he came from Paul and Paul was writing Isu Chrestos (since then forged of course). This was the first form of chrestianity and it started around 90.
Justin was crazy: he thought he was a Chrestian, it even was his philosophy. He was a member of one of the few small chrestian communities in rome. They used of course this gospel. It was the only one. The church had nothing to do with it, they were old testamentic. Chrestianity is gnostic. Justin did not get the point. He was a gnostic chrestian, but he was connecting it to the OT. He also thought it had really happened, coming from Samaria. He was not opposed to the gospel, but to the "other god". The other god was the gnostic god, because Gnosticism is a religion (which Irenaeus of course kept hidden). For that he could have changed the name. But I think he did it because he recognized the name and knew what it meant. I don't believe he was a greek, or better he was a greek maybe, but he converted to the Samaritan religion (which is the same as Judaism, but only the first 5 books). He knows simply too much details from the OT for a greek. And that is also why he thought it belonged to Jahweh. His papers went to Irenaeus in 170, and you know the rest.
greetings, Cora.
who invented the name Jesus?
Re: who invented the name Jesus?
Oh. You are going to fit right in here. 
Re: who invented the name Jesus?
Hai Giuseppe,
Nobody hated Jahweh, not Paul and not Marcion who even called him the just god (I personally would not say that). But they were (basic) gnostic, and Gnosticism is another religion with its own god. It comes from Plato (around 380 BC) and is a more spiritual religion. And it is more a way of life. It is practised in communities with a teacher. I suppose it is not forbidden to start a particular religion. In that time there were 100's of religions, and that was all okay. They were not fighting. Marcion did not try to abolish Jahweh, he recognised him and said that it was just another religion. He made a mistake (I would say) to go to the church of rome, because they were OT Jahweh lovers. Did he think they would convert? Jews, and other Jahweh lovers? Or was it a mistake? Anyway he started his own church and became popular, and was very successfull. Then the church of rome reacted. They hated Marcion (and Paul) because they had another god than Jahweh, whom they said was higher than jahweh. The gnostic god is higher, he is the universal god in the universe. Marcion was too honest for his own good. The church of rome stood up for Jahweh as the only god (he is not, he is the god of the jews). They planned to take over from Marcion. The NT was produced and the catholic church set up. It was ready in 185, the canon opened in 200, and the catholic church started. The gospel of Marcion was used in the synoptic gospels, what they did not want was thrown away, and the gospel was gone, never to be seen again. Paul was forged to a level that he became unrecognisable. And that was it.
There were gnostics who saw Jahweh as evil. Those were the jewish gnostics. They were really fed up with Judaism, with Jahweh and the whole law.Those people existed too. I do not blame them. They moved out of the country. An example of a jewish gnostic is the gospel of John: the father he speaks about is the gnostic god, and he is constantly arguing with the jews. His message is exactly the message of Paul.
greetings, Cora.
Nobody hated Jahweh, not Paul and not Marcion who even called him the just god (I personally would not say that). But they were (basic) gnostic, and Gnosticism is another religion with its own god. It comes from Plato (around 380 BC) and is a more spiritual religion. And it is more a way of life. It is practised in communities with a teacher. I suppose it is not forbidden to start a particular religion. In that time there were 100's of religions, and that was all okay. They were not fighting. Marcion did not try to abolish Jahweh, he recognised him and said that it was just another religion. He made a mistake (I would say) to go to the church of rome, because they were OT Jahweh lovers. Did he think they would convert? Jews, and other Jahweh lovers? Or was it a mistake? Anyway he started his own church and became popular, and was very successfull. Then the church of rome reacted. They hated Marcion (and Paul) because they had another god than Jahweh, whom they said was higher than jahweh. The gnostic god is higher, he is the universal god in the universe. Marcion was too honest for his own good. The church of rome stood up for Jahweh as the only god (he is not, he is the god of the jews). They planned to take over from Marcion. The NT was produced and the catholic church set up. It was ready in 185, the canon opened in 200, and the catholic church started. The gospel of Marcion was used in the synoptic gospels, what they did not want was thrown away, and the gospel was gone, never to be seen again. Paul was forged to a level that he became unrecognisable. And that was it.
There were gnostics who saw Jahweh as evil. Those were the jewish gnostics. They were really fed up with Judaism, with Jahweh and the whole law.Those people existed too. I do not blame them. They moved out of the country. An example of a jewish gnostic is the gospel of John: the father he speaks about is the gnostic god, and he is constantly arguing with the jews. His message is exactly the message of Paul.
greetings, Cora.
Re: who invented the name Jesus?
So christos means anointed. Was jesus a king? Was Jesus a highpriest? Was Jesus a messiah? Look it up. Messiah is a political military function. It is a warrior, the leader of a rebel army against the romans, who removes the romans from the country, and then becomes king. I don't think Jesus was that.And even if he wanted to be: a dead messiah is no messiah at all according to the jews. You first have to succeed.
And Paul wrote chrestos.
Cora
And Paul wrote chrestos.
Cora
Re: who invented the name Jesus?
hai Isayre,
You are close. From Paul on Isu is a god, in Gnosticism a divine spirit, the son of the gnostic god, who is also spiritual. Chrestos was terrible to find, I also came no further than good. But then I found it: chrestos in connection to a god means saviour. So Apollo chrestos. So Isu chrestos. Isu means god and chrestos means saviour. And that is what Paul meant. Glad I found it. Paul was really not talking about Jesus Messiah, what the forger made of it. Would also not be of much use among greeks.
I read about this. In the two oldest codexes of the NT from the 4th century the word christos is not even there, only chrestos. In the next codex from 450 no christus to find, only chrestus. So christos is from after 450: the church changed it. So the ridiculous messiah appears only after 450. So I do not understand what that is, all those early Christians they talk about, not to speak of jewish Christians who were of course not there. Jews and a son of Jahweh, jews and a dead messiah-claimant? Open your mouth and take the risk to get stoned for blasphemy, I would say. All those christian writers know nothing about Judaism or Gnosticism. Absolutely nothing. They don't have to I suppose, it is all about Jesus Christ. That is how the fairy-tale is kept going. Try to say something different, you are ignored.
thank you for your reaction,
greetings, Cora.
You are close. From Paul on Isu is a god, in Gnosticism a divine spirit, the son of the gnostic god, who is also spiritual. Chrestos was terrible to find, I also came no further than good. But then I found it: chrestos in connection to a god means saviour. So Apollo chrestos. So Isu chrestos. Isu means god and chrestos means saviour. And that is what Paul meant. Glad I found it. Paul was really not talking about Jesus Messiah, what the forger made of it. Would also not be of much use among greeks.
I read about this. In the two oldest codexes of the NT from the 4th century the word christos is not even there, only chrestos. In the next codex from 450 no christus to find, only chrestus. So christos is from after 450: the church changed it. So the ridiculous messiah appears only after 450. So I do not understand what that is, all those early Christians they talk about, not to speak of jewish Christians who were of course not there. Jews and a son of Jahweh, jews and a dead messiah-claimant? Open your mouth and take the risk to get stoned for blasphemy, I would say. All those christian writers know nothing about Judaism or Gnosticism. Absolutely nothing. They don't have to I suppose, it is all about Jesus Christ. That is how the fairy-tale is kept going. Try to say something different, you are ignored.
thank you for your reaction,
greetings, Cora.
Re: who invented the name Jesus?
What you say does not make sense. Cora specifically implies that Marcion being a disciple of Paul wrote about Isu Chrestos and he/she believes it was Justin who forged his writings and changed Isu Chestos to Isesous Christos.MrMacSon wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:05 amThere, you've misrepresented what Cora wrote - she didn't say Justin forged writings of Marcion - so, in attacking your own misrepresentation, you've made a strawman fallacy.
Read again what Cora wrote:
cora wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:43 pm A few things have become clear. The oldest church found was from Marcion and there is chiselled there above the door: Isu Chrestos. Since Marcion based himself completely on Paul (letters and euaggelion together), Paul must have written also about Isu Chrestos. Some people try to retrieve letters of Paul (I guess by Tertullianus) and indeed: Paul was writing also about Isu Chrestos. So all the way through there was written about Isu Chrestos. Paul lived somewhat later than the NT says. There was a story from about 72 (not Mark) to which Paul was attracted. So Paul began in 85 or 90 with his preaching, and Marcion was his direct disciple from about 120 on. No shouting please: these are facts dug up in a thorough investigation. And if something is different than the catholic church says: of course it is. Their story comes from 185 and is fabricated.
What I want to know: who forged Isu Chrestos into Iesous Christos ??? Because it is a forgery. I personally think it was Justin Martyr, but I am not sure. It will be difficult to find. It was no Jesus, it was Isu.
Re: who invented the name Jesus?
Before we get lost in these bizarre speculation about "who invented the name Jesus" it must be made clear that the name Jesus or the NT Jesus character's name was derived from the works of Josephus.
There are multiple persons identified by the name of Jesus in Josephus---Jesus the son of Sapphias, Jesus the son of Sie, Jesus the son of Gamala, Jesus the son of Phabet, Jesus the son of Ananus, Jesus the son of Damneus, Jesus the high priest and others.
It cannot be a coincidence that virtually every name of characters in the NT Gospels are also found in the writings attributed Josephus and not only names but also events.
John the Baptist, Jesus, Peter, James, John, Judas, Philip, Joseph, Mary and others are all in Josephus.
Josephus lived in Galilee--NT Jesus lived in Galilee.
Jesus the son of Ananus went on trial under a Governor of Judea-- NT Jesus was also on trial under a Governor of Judea.
Jesus the son of Sapphias was the leader of mariners--NT Jesus was the leader of fishermen.
Josephus saw three men crucified who were taken down and one survived--NT Jesus was crucified with two persons and he alone resurrected.
There are multiple persons identified by the name of Jesus in Josephus---Jesus the son of Sapphias, Jesus the son of Sie, Jesus the son of Gamala, Jesus the son of Phabet, Jesus the son of Ananus, Jesus the son of Damneus, Jesus the high priest and others.
It cannot be a coincidence that virtually every name of characters in the NT Gospels are also found in the writings attributed Josephus and not only names but also events.
John the Baptist, Jesus, Peter, James, John, Judas, Philip, Joseph, Mary and others are all in Josephus.
Josephus lived in Galilee--NT Jesus lived in Galilee.
Jesus the son of Ananus went on trial under a Governor of Judea-- NT Jesus was also on trial under a Governor of Judea.
Jesus the son of Sapphias was the leader of mariners--NT Jesus was the leader of fishermen.
Josephus saw three men crucified who were taken down and one survived--NT Jesus was crucified with two persons and he alone resurrected.
Re: who invented the name Jesus?
I am a she. You are almost right. Justin did not forge Marcion, but he INVENTED the new name. I read an article which shows how he did it, so it is certain!!!! He invented iesous. His papers went to Irenaeus in 170 and Irenaeus took it over. And so it came in the gospels.
Finally proof that Irenaeus wrote the gospels (except John) from 170 on.
greetings, Cora
Finally proof that Irenaeus wrote the gospels (except John) from 170 on.
greetings, Cora
Re: who invented the name Jesus?
I agree with you that most names are taken from Josephus, by Irenaeus. Josephus gave an enormous amount of facts, names etc. about the first century there. Irenaeus took even the name Saul from there to suggest that Paul was a jew. But did Josephus write about the NT Jesus? No.
greetings, Cora.
greetings, Cora.
Re: who invented the name Jesus?
yeah, Nah. Aspects of the narrative about the NT character Iesous might have been motivated by or borrowed from accounts of Iesous characters in the works of Josephus, but not the name itself.
Iesous was a common name but it was also the Greek transliteration of the name of a revered Jewish leader, Y'hosua/Y'shua/Yeshu'a, the successor to Moses, and also said to have been a major prophet. A name and character the likes of Philo had revered in the early first century AD/CE