The New Testament Peshitta and the Nomina Sacra

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Charles Wilson
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Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am

Re: The New Testament Peshitta

Post by Charles Wilson »

Hello everyone.

I started a Thread that immediately disappeared into das Noumena concerning Aramaic Primacy vs. The Greekies. I thought I had enough material to begin but was inundated with a flood of examples that showed to me that the subject was much deeper.

The easier Path to refute the Aramaic Primacy Argument is through John and the Composite Author Theory of, for example, Teeple. If Teeple is correct, 4 or 5 Greekies wrote John with the E-ditor writing the recognizable John and the R-edactor finishing the Task. If there were 4 or 5 writers authoring a Book with recognizable Greek constructions ("Arthrous" vs. "Anarthrous" names, for example) AND the Aramaic followed this construction, even if not entirely word-for-word, then it would be easier to presume that the Greek came first.

Steve Caruso attempts to show that the language of the NT is Galilean in nature and the Syriac came later.
This makes a hash of certain Primacy arguments since it then becomes plausible to assert a Primitive Galilean John that was supplanted by a later Syriac Version "that everyone recognized", following from the Greek.

The Aramaic Side is found in Mark, oddly enough, since the obvious rewrite telescopes two stories into one, with John "correcting" Mark as to which crucifixion was the "Real One". Raskin, again, attempts to show that there was a Source Document that BOTH Mark and John used. If True, in what Language was this Original written?

The first thought would be that if this Document was seized in the rubble of the Temple, it would have been most likely an Aramaic document. if a Nicholas of Damascus authored it, however, it might have been in Greek. Unless Zakkai helped. 'N so on. It gets complicated.
Steven Avery wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:20 amThe Peshitta is far closer to the Greek Byzantine text than to the Vaticanus/Alexandrian reader's digest abbreviated text. However, there are many important spots where it does not match the Greek.
You bring up a good point. What is your view on the word "Gabbatha"? It is given as "Hebrew" (as is "Golgotha") though Teeple states that it is Aramaic and was inserted by the Redactor, showing that the Redactor really doesn't know Hebrew. Bauscher states that it is a "One-Way" Transliteration, that it would never get Transliterated from Greek back into Aramaic, thus illustrating Aramaic Primary, certainly not Greek.

As an aside, if the Empty Tomb Section was written by Pliny the Younger and Tacitus, the Roman Thesis would also bring the Primacy Arguments to ruin but that might be for another day.

Thanx all,

CW
Steven Avery
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Re: The New Testament Peshitta

Post by Steven Avery »

Charles Wilson wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:46 pm What is your view on the word "Gabbatha"? It is given as "Hebrew" (as is "Golgotha") though Teeple states that it is Aramaic ... CW
Aramaic names and loan-words would easily come into Hebrew.

============================

Discovering the Language of Jesus: Hebrew Or Aramaic? (2007)
Douglas Hamp
https://books.google.com/books?id=12KTD95EhQcC&pg=PA45
https://www.academia.edu/45622119/Disco ... or_Aramaic
2011 final
http://www.douglashamp.com/wp-content/u ... -Jesus.pdf

... There is little doubt that this word is Hebrew and need not necessarily be interpreted as Aramaic. ....

============================

The Narrative Role of Semitic Languages in the Book of Acts (2003)
John C. Poirier
http://biblicalstudy.ru/NT/01.pdf
https://www.bsw.org/filologia-neotestam ... -acts/402/

============================

Jesus' Mother Tongue Part 2: The Supposed Dominance of Aramaic in First Century Galilee
David Miller
Associate Professor of New Testament and Early Judaism, Briercrest College & Seminary
https://gervatoshav.blogspot.com/2010/0 ... posed.html

Third, John's three place names called Hebraisti, namely Bethzatha, Gabbatha, and Golgotha should not be given much weight in the light [of] the resistance of proper names to translation. Thus all the apparently Aramaic words cited could easily have been used in Hebrew speech.

David Miller
https://www.briercrestcollege.ca/facult ... avidMiller

============================

The Language Environment of First Century Judaea - Jerusalem Studies in the Synoptic Gospels - Volume Two (2014)
Hebraisti in Ancient Texts: Does ἑβραϊστί Ever Mean "Aramaic"?
Randall Buth and Chad Pierce
http://mis.kp.ac.rw/admin/admin_panel/k ... (2014).pdf

Tessa Rajak (Josephus: The Historian and His Society [London: Duckworth, 2002], 232) noted this correctly and explicitly: “In the Gospel of John certain names are said to he ‘in Hebrew’: Bethesda (5:2), Gabbatha (19.13), Golgotha (19.17) and the appellation ‘Rabbouni’ (20.16). While the place-name forms look Aramaic, they could have served at the time in Hebrew too, if there was constant interaction between the two languages."
David Rivin (“Hebraisms in the Now Testament," in Encyclopedia of Hebrew language and Linguistics [Leiden: Brill, forthcoming]) takes the same approach: “The author of John gives the Greek transliterations of three place names: Bethzatha, Gabbatha, Golgotha, and despite their Aramaic etymology, he accepts these proper nouns as part of the Hebrew language” - p. 97-98

Rajak’s summary is short and to the point: "In the Gospel of John certain names are said to be ‘in Hebrew’: Bethesda (5:2), Gabbatha (19.13), Golgotha (19.17) and the appellation ‘Rabbouni’ (20.16). While the place-name forms look Aramaic, they could have served at the time in Hebrew too, if there was constant interaction between the two languages" (Rajak Josephus, 232). p. 108

Randall Buth
https://www.uhl.ac/buth/

============================

Ken Penner really moved the needle on this question at the 2004 SBL

Ancient Names for Hebrew and Aramaic: A Case for Lexical Revision (2019, built upon a much earlier SBL presentation)
Ken Penner
https://www.academia.edu/39012105/Ancie ... l_Revision
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... 632C92DCC6

What language did Paul speak in Acts 21-22? Ancient names for Hebrew and Aramaic (2011)
Ken Penner
https://www.academia.edu/1669906/What_l ... nd_Aramaic

Ken Penner
https://people.stfx.ca/kpenner/

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Pure Bible Forum
Hebraisti - Douglas Hamp, Ken Penner, Targumim and 2021 discussion on academia.edu
https://purebibleforum.com/index.php?th ... -edu.1778/

Paul speaking Hebrew (Hebraisti) in the New Testament - "Aramaic" another modern version blunder
https://www.purebibleforum.com/index.ph ... under.434/

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Steven Avery
Dutchess County, NY USA
ebion
Posts: 423
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2023 11:32 am

Apostolic Church of the East New Testament PeshittA

Post by ebion »

lclapshaw wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:06 am As I understand it, the New Testament Peshitta is only known to exist from the 6th century,
The Assyrians will tell you otherwise; the Apostolic Church of the East (which uses the PeshittA as their scripture) was probably the biggest church in the world by then. Their legend is that the ACoE was founded in Antioch then Seleucia-Ctesiphon after the Early Christians from Jerusalem fled to Pella before the sack by Titus. And that whilst Peter and Paul went West to Rome, Thomas went to India via Persia with a shipwreck on the island of socotra.

Pantaenus, visiting India late in the second century, reported that

he found on his own arrival anticipated by some... to whom Bartholomew, one of the apostles, had preached, and had left them the Gospel of Matthew in Hebrew."
(Eusebius quoted by H.J. Schonfield. The History of Jewish Christianity (London: Duckworth, 1936) at 66.)

So at least Matthew was being taught mid-2 c.; there may not have been much else at that point in an
Early Christian Canon. But they had enough bishops attending the Council of Chalcedon in 451 AD to get kicked out (a big plus for the ACoE in my eyes :,).They're still out (a big plus in my eyes :,)
lclapshaw wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:06 am I have no familiarity with ancient Syriac and so am not able to spot where examples of nomina sacra might be present in the text. Does anyone here know if the nomina sacra was used in the New Testament Peshitta and if so could you give me some examples so that I can search the text myself?
You can see for yourself in what I think is the best translation of the PeshittA. It's a little hard to read fluidly, but it's great for research. Nobody in the West seems to know about them which is a big mistake.
lclapshaw wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:06 am If indeed the Peshitta NT did not use the NS then this is a big deal as far as understanding early Christianity is concerned IMO.
Depending what you mean by NS I think the answer is no. Out of curiosity, why is this a big deal?
Last edited by ebion on Sun Dec 03, 2023 10:27 am, edited 4 times in total.
Charles Wilson
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Re: The New Testament Peshitta

Post by Charles Wilson »

Steven Avery wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:31 am
Charles Wilson wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:46 pm What is your view on the word "Gabbatha"? It is given as "Hebrew" (as is "Golgotha") though Teeple states that it is Aramaic ... CW
Aramaic names and loan-words would easily come into Hebrew.
***
David Rivin (“Hebraisms in the Now Testament," in Encyclopedia of Hebrew language and Linguistics [Leiden: Brill, forthcoming]) takes the same approach: “The author of John gives the Greek transliterations of three place names: Bethzatha, Gabbatha, Golgotha, and despite their Aramaic etymology, he accepts these proper nouns as part of the Hebrew language” - p. 97-98

Rajak’s summary is short and to the point: "In the Gospel of John certain names are said to be ‘in Hebrew’: Bethesda (5:2), Gabbatha (19.13), Golgotha (19.17) and the appellation ‘Rabbouni’ (20.16). While the place-name forms look Aramaic, they could have served at the time in Hebrew too, if there was constant interaction between the two languages" (Rajak Josephus, 232). p. 108
Steven Avery --

Lotsa' scholarship on "Golgotha" (The Catholics admit that they don't know with certainty the location - https://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=5244 :"These affirmations all bear the mark of fitness; but until documents are produced to confirm them, they must inevitably fall short as proof of facts.") and "Gabbatha". Two single use words found within a few verses of each other in John. Perhaps this is in itself a Clue that someone is playing a Word Game and not writing History in Locations.
I have the Word-Play as "Golgotha" => "Gabbatha" => "Galba-Otho".

"Bezetha" is North-Northwest of the Temple.

Over and over, we find Word-Plays that are unexamined. We now are beginning to look at these Word-Plays.

CW
RandyHelzerman
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Re: The New Testament Peshitta

Post by RandyHelzerman »

Charles Wilson wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2023 10:14 am Over and over, we find Word-Plays that are unexamined. We now are beginning to look at these Word-Plays.
How convincing are these, really? Especially when being found by people who are not native speakers either of Latin or Syriac? Using reconstructed pronunciations, which in an age without mass-communication most likely varied from village to village to the point of mutual unintelligibility always?

Mark explicitly tells us, for example, that "Golgotha" means the place of the skull. We don't know where that was, because its a fictional place anyways.

Where are the historical "Spooky Hallows" located at? Sounds like "Spukhalle" in German, so perhaps it was originally referring to a Bavarian beer hall?

Or wait, when all those Germans migrated to America and found that bears hibernate in caves, maybe weren't talking about "beer halls", they were talking about "bear holes?" We do know that in the 1830's, in southern Indiana, both "beer" and "bear" would have been pronounced very similar, because of the proximity to Kentucky where they have a well-attested, strong southern accent?

The problem isn't that the hypothesis themselves are unreasonable, the problem is that there are almost no constraints to rule out wrong hypothesis, so it's just too easy to speculate yourself into the place you wanted to go before you started the speculation.
ebion
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Re: The New Testament Peshitta and the Nomina Sacra

Post by ebion »

Steven Avery wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:31 am Aramaic names and loan-words would easily come into Hebrew.
I started a thread HAramaic: the Hebrew and Aramaic roots in the New Testament to can clarify:
  • was original Matthew was written in Hebrew, or Aramaic, or both?
  • can we identify the semeticisms in the NT that point to the original book being in Hebrew, not Aramaic?
  • can we identify the semeticisms in the NT that point to the original book being in Aramaic, not Hebrew?
I pointed to your post as the first post in the thread.

There already is a existing on a more extreme New Testament Peshitta topic:
Last edited by ebion on Sun Oct 29, 2023 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
ebion
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Re: The New Testament Peshitta

Post by ebion »

Charles Wilson wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:46 pm I started a Thread that immediately disappeared into das Noumena concerning Aramaic Primacy vs. The Greekies. I thought I had enough material to begin but was inundated with a flood of examples that showed to me that the subject was much deeper.
The subject is deep, but don't be afraid of floods: I asked about the New Testament PeshittA because I asked myself Was the New Testament Originally Written in Aramaic. This is because I want to know what would be contained in an Early Ebionaen Canon

In the end I found that there was one thing as a Christian that really simplified things: what is the feeling I get when reading a good translation from the Aramaic, rather than from the Greek. After finally finding a translation I like, versus my favourite from the Greek (Matthew's), I can honestly say I prefer the PeshittA.
Last edited by ebion on Fri Dec 01, 2023 3:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
StephenGoranson
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Re: The New Testament Peshitta and the Nomina Sacra

Post by StephenGoranson »

Charles Wilson wrote, above, in part:
"I have the Word-Play as "Golgotha" => "Gabbatha" => "Galba-Otho"."
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Was that serious or a joke? --if I am allowed to ask.
davidmartin
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Re: The New Testament Peshitta and the Nomina Sacra

Post by davidmartin »

Magdalene reads "The Tower" in Syriac, not a place Magdala
Obviously a nickname and it reads 'tower' in the Peshitta I seem to recall

Jerome
But if they recall how holy women attended our Lord and Savior and ministered to him of their own substance, and how the three Marys stood before the cross, and particularly how Mary of Magdala, called "of the tower" because of her earnestness and ardent faith, was privileged to see the rising Christ even before the apostles, they will convict themselves of pride rather than me of folly, who judge virtue not by the sex but by the mind.
Charles Wilson
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Re: The New Testament Peshitta and the Nomina Sacra

Post by Charles Wilson »

Bauscher states:

“ R “Tshifhta d'Kaypha” & “Gpiptha” are in Northern
(Galilean) and Southern (Judean) dialects of Palestinian
Aramaic. Both names mean “The Pavement.” The
Greek has “Gabbatha”...another obvious transliteration of
the Aramaic “Gpiptha”...in which the letter “Pe”...was
mistaken for a “Beth”, easily done with square Aramaic
Script. This does not work in a Greek to Aramaic
translation scenario. “Gabbatha”...would not be mistaken
for (“Gpiptha”)...”


CW
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