394 pages.
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Mario Turone: Jesus and Paul identified in the profane History
Mario Turone: Jesus and Paul identified in the profane History
Usually the only known Italian mythicists of the past are Cascioli and Milesbo (it seems that Garibaldi was mythicist, too). Now I have found another:
394 pages.
Next a review.
394 pages.
Next a review.
Re: Mario Turone: Jesus and Paul identified in the profane History
Interesting the introduction of the book.
Turione argues that we should start the explanation of the Origins starting from the early Christian apologists.
He notes that the apologists continued to call 'Christ Jesus' and 'God' their presumed founder, contra factum that the Pagans despised him as 'the Galilean'.
In particular, the apology assumed, already with Paul, the form of a Docetic Christology: the man Jesus was only appearance.
(p. 9, my translation)
Something as: if you (=Pagans) accuse our Jesus of human flaws, we attribute the human flaws to the appearance, not to the true essence, of Jesus.
Turone raises a curious comparison with the action of a Jewish apologist of his own right, Philo:
(my translation, p. 10, original cursive)
Just as Philo had doubled the biblical stories (adding to their immediate sense, reduced to mere appearance, a more true transcendent sense) — and Philo had done so since he was obliged to defend the truth of these stories against the Pagan attacks — so Paul and the early Apologists had doubled the historical Jesus (adding to his human nature, reduced to mere appearance, the more true spiritual nature): — and they had done so since they were obliged to defend the historical Jesus against the Pagan attacks.
Turione argues that we should start the explanation of the Origins starting from the early Christian apologists.
He notes that the apologists continued to call 'Christ Jesus' and 'God' their presumed founder, contra factum that the Pagans despised him as 'the Galilean'.
In particular, the apology assumed, already with Paul, the form of a Docetic Christology: the man Jesus was only appearance.
By a such postulate, the Christian Apologetics had refused to put in discussion, in the first centuries, the physical person of their founder.
(p. 9, my translation)
Something as: if you (=Pagans) accuse our Jesus of human flaws, we attribute the human flaws to the appearance, not to the true essence, of Jesus.
Turone raises a curious comparison with the action of a Jewish apologist of his own right, Philo:
Philo wrote many books, to show that the immoral stories, found in the holy books and on which focused the sarcasms of the gentiles, were rather allegories of philosophical truths: appearance therefore, given to them by the deity revealing, in proportion with the inferior spiritual elevation of the age to which they referred.
(my translation, p. 10, original cursive)
Just as Philo had doubled the biblical stories (adding to their immediate sense, reduced to mere appearance, a more true transcendent sense) — and Philo had done so since he was obliged to defend the truth of these stories against the Pagan attacks — so Paul and the early Apologists had doubled the historical Jesus (adding to his human nature, reduced to mere appearance, the more true spiritual nature): — and they had done so since they were obliged to defend the historical Jesus against the Pagan attacks.
Re: Mario Turone: Jesus and Paul identified in the profane History
It is not a coincidence, according to Turione, that in the hymn to Philippians we have both a docetic Christology and the name 'Jesus' given only after the resurrection.
The same apologetics in action behind the docetism (see the post above), was partially in action behind the imposition of a new name (=Jesus) who whould have to eclipse the previous:
because both, the human life of the man, and his name, were cause of embarrassment.
The same apologetics in action behind the docetism (see the post above), was partially in action behind the imposition of a new name (=Jesus) who whould have to eclipse the previous:
because both, the human life of the man, and his name, were cause of embarrassment.
Re: Mario Turone: Jesus and Paul identified in the profane History
Turione argues that the expression
...translated in this passage as "sons of Judas of Galilee":
Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, XX: 5.2
...should be translated rather as:
...since the same Josephus mentions Menahem as:
...which is improbable: therefore both James, Simon and Menahem were disciples of Judas the Galilean.
paides Juda tou Galilaiou
...translated in this passage as "sons of Judas of Galilee":
"... the sons of Judas of Galilee were now slain; I mean of that Judas who caused the people to revolt, when Cyrenius came to take an account of the estates of the Jews, as we have showed in a foregoing book. The names of those sons were James and Simon, whom Alexander commanded to be crucified…"
Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, XX: 5.2
...should be translated rather as:
disciples of Judas of Galilee
...since the same Josephus mentions Menahem as:
Menahem son of Judas called Galilean
Manaimòs tis, uiòs Juda tou koloumenou Galilaiou
...which is improbable: therefore both James, Simon and Menahem were disciples of Judas the Galilean.
Re: Mario Turone: Jesus and Paul identified in the profane History
Turione argues that John the Baptist was captured by Pilate, on request by Herod Antipas, and released to Herod Antipas, who then killed him in Machaerus.
Antipas couldn't arrest John the Baptist in his own territory, since Josephus says that John was loved by the people and Antipas feared tumults. Hence Antipas used Pilate to arrest John the Baptist.
This historical fact entered in the Gospel legend as Pilate releasing Jesus to Herod (the famous ping pong).
This same historical fact allowed the introduction of Pilate in the narrative.
The insistence on Pilate as killer of Jesus is therefore motivated by the theological need of having John the Baptist immediate precursor of Jesus, when really the historical 'Jesus' was killed before the death of John the Baptist (and before the rule of Pilate).
Antipas couldn't arrest John the Baptist in his own territory, since Josephus says that John was loved by the people and Antipas feared tumults. Hence Antipas used Pilate to arrest John the Baptist.
This historical fact entered in the Gospel legend as Pilate releasing Jesus to Herod (the famous ping pong).
This same historical fact allowed the introduction of Pilate in the narrative.
The insistence on Pilate as killer of Jesus is therefore motivated by the theological need of having John the Baptist immediate precursor of Jesus, when really the historical 'Jesus' was killed before the death of John the Baptist (and before the rule of Pilate).
Re: Mario Turone: Jesus and Paul identified in the profane History
The "decisive chronological evidence", as Turione calls it, is found in Acts 4:1-7:
If Annas was the high priest in the time of the arrest of Simon and John, then, since a such arrest had to appen many years after the death of Jesus, the same death of Jesus had to be happened under Annas as high priest, i.e. between the year 6 and the year 15.
Before the rule of Pilate.
The priests and the captain of the temple guard and the Sadducees came up to Peter and John while they were speaking to the people. 2 They were greatly disturbed because the apostles were teaching the people, proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection of the dead. 3 They seized Peter and John and, because it was evening, they put them in jail until the next day. 4 But many who heard the message believed; so the number of men who believed grew to about five thousand.
5 The next day the rulers, the elders and the teachers of the law met in Jerusalem. 6 Annas the high priest was there, and so were Caiaphas, John, Alexander and others of the high priest’s family. 7 They had Peter and John brought before them and began to question them: “By what power or what name did you do this?”
5 The next day the rulers, the elders and the teachers of the law met in Jerusalem. 6 Annas the high priest was there, and so were Caiaphas, John, Alexander and others of the high priest’s family. 7 They had Peter and John brought before them and began to question them: “By what power or what name did you do this?”
If Annas was the high priest in the time of the arrest of Simon and John, then, since a such arrest had to appen many years after the death of Jesus, the same death of Jesus had to be happened under Annas as high priest, i.e. between the year 6 and the year 15.
Before the rule of Pilate.
Re: Mario Turone: Jesus and Paul identified in the profane History
Why did the tradition invent that Paul had as teacher the rabbi Gamaliel ?
Paul in Galatians 1:12 claimed that his only teacher was Jesus Christ.
Jesus "of Gamala" (=Judas the Galilean) became eclipsed as Jesus 'Gamaliel" (=native of Gamala).
The author of Acts was wrong in placing, in the Gamaliel's speech, Judas after Theudas. But his error is evidence that he assumed (deliberately?) as a concrete 'body' the messianic news about a return of Judas the Galilean in the glory.
(a hearsay still active, historically, after Theudas).
Paul in Galatians 1:12 claimed that his only teacher was Jesus Christ.
Jesus "of Gamala" (=Judas the Galilean) became eclipsed as Jesus 'Gamaliel" (=native of Gamala).
The author of Acts was wrong in placing, in the Gamaliel's speech, Judas after Theudas. But his error is evidence that he assumed (deliberately?) as a concrete 'body' the messianic news about a return of Judas the Galilean in the glory.
(a hearsay still active, historically, after Theudas).
Re: Mario Turone: Jesus and Paul identified in the profane History
Turone argues that the authenticity of Romans 7:1-7 (God commands to pay tributes to human archons) reveals that the Christians of Rome did the exact contrary of what Paul prescribed them: they refused to pay the tributes to Rome, in Rome itself.
Hence, they were really killed by Nero after the Great Fire of Rome.
Hence, they were really killed by Nero after the Great Fire of Rome.
Re: Mario Turone: Jesus and Paul identified in the profane History
Incredible coincidence of the death of Jacob and Simon disciples (paides) of Judas the Galilean (according to Josephus) and the arrest of James and Simon in the Acts...
...occurring during the Passover of the same year: 48 CE.
...occurring during the Passover of the same year: 48 CE.
Re: Mario Turone: Jesus and Paul identified in the profane History
The healers were called 'sons of Aesculapius" when really they were the disciples of Aesculapius.
Josephus (Ant. 12:7) calls 'sons' of Tobias (oi Tobiou paides) the distant followers of that first rebel.
Eusebius calls 'sons of Rechab' the Recabites (Hist. 2, 23:17).
Hence the 'sons [paides] of Judas the Galilean' could only be the disciples of Judas the Galilean.
In addition, and this is decisive, Menahem was too much young to be the real biological son of Judas the Galilean. He 'flied' to Masada too much rapidly as evidence that he was young.
Josephus (Ant. 12:7) calls 'sons' of Tobias (oi Tobiou paides) the distant followers of that first rebel.
Eusebius calls 'sons of Rechab' the Recabites (Hist. 2, 23:17).
Hence the 'sons [paides] of Judas the Galilean' could only be the disciples of Judas the Galilean.
In addition, and this is decisive, Menahem was too much young to be the real biological son of Judas the Galilean. He 'flied' to Masada too much rapidly as evidence that he was young.