Nuh's Wife

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Ethan
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Nuh's Wife

Post by Ethan »


Genesis 7:7
Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood

Genesis 7:13
In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark

Genesis 8:18
Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him

1 Peter 3:20
in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.[

Qur'an 66:10
Allah sets forth, for an example to the Unbelievers, the wife of Noah and the wife of Lut: they were (respectively) under two of our righteous servants, but they were false to their (husbands), and they profited nothing before Allah on their account, but were told: "Enter ye the Fire along with (others) that enter!

Sura 11:42-43
Noah said: "This day nothing can save, from the command of Allah, any but those on whom He hath mercy!" And the waves came between them, and the son was among those overwhelmed in the Flood.

Wives
The Persian historian Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari (c. 915) recounts that Japheth's wife was Arbasisah, daughter of Marazil, son of al-Darmasil, son of Mehujael, son of Enoch, son of Cain; that Ham's wife was Naḥlab, daughter of Marib, another son of al-Darmasil; and that Shem's wife was Ṣalib, daughter of Batawil, another son of Mehujael. He says Noah's wife was Amzurah, daughter of Barakil, another son of Mehujael.

Noah - Amzurah
Japheth - Arbasisah
Ham - Nahlab
Shem - Salib

These wife names are similar to those in the Book of Jubilees.

Noah - Amzara
Japheth - Adâtanêsês
Ham - Na’êlâtamâ’ûk
Shem - Sêdêqêtêlĕbâb
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ConfusedEnoch
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Re: Nuh's Wife

Post by ConfusedEnoch »

Salib is such a bizarre name for Shem's wife to have... It's supposed to mean "Cross" in Arabic and as a verb "Crucify", but also connected to Akkadian ṣalāpu meaning "To impale" also used for foreigners.
However, it is a very ancient name in the Levant specifically, although the "Saliba/Saliby" families living there are supposed to have come from Sparta before the Christian era and lived in the Galilee region. It does make sense for Shem the Semite to have a wife with a Levantine name.

Looking into Al Tabari, he claims there is a tradition that Tiras the seventh son of Japheth had a son named Batawil, whose daughters Qarnabil, Bakht, and Arsal became the wives of Cush, Put, and Canaan, respectively.
I'm not sure if the two Batawils are related, but it is quite bizarre that all 3 of Tiras' daughters married into Phoenicians (Except Cush, though this is debatable), especially since "Tiras" has been related to the Thracians (Tirash > TRSH > THRS > Thrace) and to the Tyrrhenians, whose exonym just *screams* Tyre to me...
Biblical commentators also propose a possible connection with the city of Troy, known in the Hittite language as Taruisa.

I'd love to know what you think about Troy in general, do you think the modern scholarly view that Troy has been found in Anatolia is correct?
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DCHindley
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Re: Nuh's Wife

Post by DCHindley »

"Nuh," suh, is how residents of the US s'uthern states pronounce "Noah." No doubt, time travel must have occurred to transfer that usage back to Medieval Islamic scholars. On this board, this is equivalent to being a "Proven Fact" and thus can be used as building blocks in other, even more incredible, speculations. Oh goodie!

Considering the account you (Ethan) cited from that Islamic scholar gives names of spouses (male & female) that resemble the names of angels in the book of Enoch, the Jewish book of Jubilees presents the following genealogies for the sons and daughters of Adam:

Adam + Eve
---1) Cain + Awan (his sister)
------1) Enoch (I) + ?
---------1) Enough children to found a city
---2) Awan + Cain (her brother)
---3) Seth + Azura (his sister)
------1) Enos + Noam (his sister)
---------1) Kenan + Mualeleth (his sister)
------------1) A daughter + Rasuyal*
---------------1) Baraka + Jared
------------2) Mahalalel + Dinah
---------------1) Jared + Baraka
------------------1) A daughter + Azrial*
---------------------1) Edna + Methuselah
------------------2) Enoch (II) + Edni
---------------------1) Methuselah + Edna
------------------------1) A daughter + Rakeel*
---------------------------1) Emzara + Noah
------------------------2) Lamech + Betenos
---------------------------1) Noah + Emzara
------------------------------1) Shem
------------------------------2) Ham
------------------------------3) Japheth
---------------------2) A daughter + Barakiil*
------------------------1) Betenos + Lamech
----------------2) A daughter + Danel*
-------------------1) Edni + Enoch (II)
---------2) Mualeleth (f) + Kenan (her brother)
---------3) A daughter + Barakiel*
------------1) Dinah + Mahalalel
------2) Noam + Enos (her brother)
---4) Azura + Seth (her brother)
---5) Abel (died childless)
---6-14) 9 other children (no history recorded)

Key:

1) The line of descent traced by the Jewish scriptures is in boldface type.
2) When the line is carried through elsewhere in the chart, the boldface name is placed in italics.
3) An asterisk (*) indicates a name that is similar to names that appear in the book of 1 Enoch as an angelic Watcher who intermarried with human females.
4) An underline shows children of marriage with Watchers.

All I can say is that the author of the book of Jubilees had a *very* active imagination! He'd be at home here ... :goodmorning:

DCH
Last edited by DCHindley on Sat Mar 26, 2022 2:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DCHindley
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Re: Nuh's Wife

Post by DCHindley »

As for the book of Enoch:

(OTP 1EN 6:3) And Semjaza, who was their leader [of the fallen Watchers], said unto them: 'I fear ye will not indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.'
(OTP 1EN 6:4) And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.'
(OTP 1EN 6:5) Then sware they all together and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it.
(OTP 1EN 6:6) And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon ...

(OTP 1EN 6:7) And these are the names of their leaders: Samiazaz, their leader, Arakiba, Rameel, Kokabiel, Tamiel, Ramiel, Danel, Ezeqeel, Baraqijal, Asael, Armaros, Batarel, Ananel, Zaqiel, Samsapeel, Satarel, Turel, Jomjael, Sariel. (19)

(OTP 1EN 8:1) And Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tinctures.
(OTP 1EN 8:3) Semjaza taught enchantments, and root-cuttings,

(OTP 1EN 10:4) And again the Lord said to Raphael: 'Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein.
(OTP 1EN 10:5) And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may not see light.
(OTP 1EN 10:6) And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire.

(OTP 1EN 10:11) And the Lord said unto Michael: 'Go, bind Semjaza and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves with them in all their uncleanness.
(OTP 1EN 10:12) And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, till the judgement that is for ever and ever is consummated.
(OTP 1EN 10:13) In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: and to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever.

(OTP 1EN 54:1 [Enoch's visions called the Parables) And I looked and turned to another part of the earth, and saw there a deep valley with burning fire. 3 And there mine eyes saw how they made these their instruments, iron chains of immeasurable weight. 4) And I asked the angel of peace who went with me, saying: 'For whom are these chains being prepared?' 5) And he said unto me: 'These are being prepared for the hosts of Azazel, so that they may take them and cast them into the abyss of complete condemnation, and they shall cover their jaws with rough stones as the Lord of Spirits commanded.

(OTP 1EN 55:4) Ye mighty kings who dwell on the earth, ye shall have to behold Mine Elect One, how he sits on the throne of glory and judges Azazel, and all his associates, and all his hosts in the name of the Lord of Spirits.'

(OTP 1EN 68:2 [Noah's vision attached to the end of the Enoch's visions in the Parables]) And on that day Michael answered Raphael and said: 'The power of the spirit transports and makes me to tremble because of the severity of the judgement of the secrets, the judgement of the angels: who can endure the severe judgement which has been executed, and beforewhich they melt away?

(OTP 1EN 69:2a) And behold the names of those angels
(OTP 1EN 69:4-13) 4 The name of the first Jeqon: that is, the one who led astray [[all]] the sons of God, and brought them down to the earth, and led them astray through the daughters of men.
5 And the second was named Asbeel: he imparted to the holy sons of God evil counsel, and led them astray so that they defiled their bodies with the daughters of men.
6 And the third was named Gadreel: he it is who showed the children of men all the blows of death, and he led astray Eve, and showed [[the weapons of death to the sons of men]] the shield and the coat of mail, and the sword for battle, and all the weapons of death to the children of men. 7 And from his hand they have proceeded against those who dwell on the earth from that day and for evermore.
8 And the fourth was named Penemue: he taught the children of men the bitter and the sweet, and he taught them all the secrets of their wisdom. 9 And he instructed mankind in writing with ink and paper, and thereby many sinned from eternity to eternity and until this day. 10 For men were not created for such a purpose, to give confirmation to their good faith with pen and ink. 11 For men were created exactly like the angels, to the intent that they should continue pure and righteous, and death, which destroys everything, could not have taken hold of them, but through this their knowledge they are perishing, and through this power it is consuming me.
12 And the fifth was named Kasdeja: this is he who showed the children of men all the wicked smitings of spirits and demons, and the smitings of the embryo in the womb, that it may pass away, and [[the smitings of the soul]] the bites of the serpent, and the smitings which befall through the noontide heat, the son of the serpent named Taba'et.
13 And this is the task of [the sixth angel] Kasbeel, the chief of the oath which he showed to the holy ones when he dwelt high above in glory, and its name is Biqa.

69:2b [[and these are their names:
the first of them is Samjaza,
the second Artaqifa,
and the third Armen,
the fourth Kokabel,
the fifth Turael,
the sixth Rumjal,
the seventh Danjal,
the eighth Neqael,
the ninth Baraqel,
the tenth Azazel,
the eleventh Armaros,
the twelfth Batarjal,
the thirteenth Busasejal,
the fourteenth Hananel,
the fifteenth Turel,
and the sixteenth Simapesiel,
the seventeenth Jetrel,
the eighteenth Tumael,
the nineteenth Turel,
the twentieth Rumael,
the twenty-first Azazel.
(OTP 1EN 69:3) And these are the chiefs of their angel's and their names, [the chief of the entire 200 (1)] and their chief ones over hundreds (2) and over fifties (4) and over tens (20)]].

[We should expect then the chief of the entire 200 (1) plus their chief ones over hundreds (2) and over fifties (4) plus those over tens (20), for a total of 27. As the above list has 21, we add the six from 69:4-13, and we get 27].
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ConfusedEnoch
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Re: Nuh's Wife

Post by ConfusedEnoch »

DCHindley wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 2:24 am "Nuh," suh, is how residents of the US s'uthern states pronounce "Noah." No doubt, time travel must have occurred to transfer that usage back to Medieval Islamic scholars. On this board, this is equivalent to being a "Proven Fact" and thus can be used as building blocks in other, even more incredible, speculations. Oh goodie!
I'm having trouble understanding the point of this. "Noah" is not the real name of this individual, and the Arabic version is much closer to traditional pronunciations of the name נועה and its equivalent in other cultures like the Babylonian "Nukhu".
The word "Noach" in Modern Hebrew is also written with diacritics which were not present in ancient times, the name would have probably been pronounced as "Nukh" or "Nohkh".
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DCHindley
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Re: Nuh's Wife

Post by DCHindley »

ConfusedEnoch wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:34 am
DCHindley wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 2:24 am "Nuh," suh, is how residents of the US s'uthern states pronounce "Noah." No doubt, time travel must have occurred to transfer that usage back to Medieval Islamic scholars. On this board, this is equivalent to being a "Proven Fact" and thus can be used as building blocks in other, even more incredible, speculations. Oh goodie!
I'm having trouble understanding the point of this. "Noah" is not the real name of this individual, and the Arabic version is much closer to traditional pronunciations of the name נועה and its equivalent in other cultures like the Babylonian "Nukhu".
The word "Noach" in Modern Hebrew is also written with diacritics which were not present in ancient times, the name would have probably been pronounced as "Nukh" or "Nohkh".
Sorry, was just trying to introduce humor. US southern states are known for their "drawl." The name Noah could easily be pronounced "Nuh." I am resident in a Northern state, so perhaps I had not correctly annunciated electronically.

The rest of the post was real, and looks at the names of spouses in Judean literature. Pretty sure that Mohammed and his successors had encountered Jewish traditions.

It's OK. :tomato:
Ethan
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Re: Nuh's Wife

Post by Ethan »

One guess is that Noah (נח) means ναύτης; seaman, sailor. = ναυτικός
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ConfusedEnoch
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Re: Nuh's Wife

Post by ConfusedEnoch »

Ethan wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:20 pm One guess is that Noah (נח) means ναύτης; seaman, sailor. = ναυτικός
Interesting, I had also come to the same conclusion. Since the Noah myth is almost universally found throughout the world, it would make sense for the word "Noah" to have a connection to ships or seamen in all of these languages.

I found a Proto-Semitic word *'nwat which means "Boat", perhaps related to the "nawtikos" you speak of. Fittingly, Gamkrelidze and Ivanov argue that the PIE root for ναύς, "*néh₂us" itself is a borrowing from Proto-Semitic!

Another possible connection can be found by looking at some of the Vedic myths, where the last Manu lives a life very similar to Noah's. Indeed, Manu was said by some of the early British travelers to India to be a contraction of Maha Nuvu, a combination of Maha "Great" and the name Nuvu (could be related to Sanskrit Nava meaning Boat), making Manu the Great Sailor/Shipbuilder.
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John T
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Re: Nuh's Wife

Post by John T »

DCHindley wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 2:24 am "Nuh," suh, is how residents of the US s'uthern states pronounce "Noah." No doubt, time travel must have occurred to transfer that usage back to Medieval Islamic scholars. On this board, this is equivalent to being a "Proven Fact" and thus can be used as building blocks in other, even more incredible, speculations. Oh goodie!

Considering the account you (Ethan) cited from that Islamic scholar gives names of spouses (male & female) that resemble the names of angels in the book of Enoch, the Jewish book of Jubilees presents the following genealogies for the sons and daughters of Adam:

Adam + Eve
---1) Cain + Awan (his sister)
------1) Enoch (I) + ?
---------1) Enough children to found a city
---2) Awan + Cain (her brother)
---3) Seth + Azura (his sister)
------1) Enos + Noam (his sister)
---------1) Kenan + Mualeleth (his sister)
------------1) A daughter + Rasuyal*
---------------1) Baraka + Jared
------------2) Mahalalel + Dinah
---------------1) Jared + Baraka
------------------1) A daughter + Azrial*
---------------------1) Edna + Methuselah
------------------2) Enoch (II) + Edni
---------------------1) Methuselah + Edna
------------------------1) A daughter + Rakeel*
---------------------------1) Emzara + Noah
------------------------2) Lamech + Betenos
---------------------------1) Noah + Emzara
------------------------------1) Shem
------------------------------2) Ham
------------------------------3) Japheth
---------------------2) A daughter + Barakiil*
------------------------1) Betenos + Lamech
----------------2) A daughter + Danel*
-------------------1) Edni + Enoch (II)
---------2) Mualeleth (f) + Kenan (her brother)
---------3) A daughter + Barakiel*
------------1) Dinah + Mahalalel
------2) Noam + Enos (her brother)
---4) Azura + Seth (her brother)
---5) Abel (died childless)
---6-14) 9 other children (no history recorded)

Key:

1) The line of descent traced by the Jewish scriptures is in boldface type.
2) When the line is carried through elsewhere in the chart, the boldface name is placed in italics.
3) An asterisk (*) indicates a name that is similar to names that appear in the book of 1 Enoch as an angelic Watcher who intermarried with human females.
4) An underline shows children of marriage with Watchers.

All I can say is that the author of the book of Jubilees had a *very* active imagination! He'd be at home here ... :goodmorning:

DCH
I bow to the master and cry, I'm not worthy! :notworthy:
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